I think that sometimes what Catholics especially in discussions in this forum perceive as disdain for the Pope is merely another side asking questions and providing scripture that perhaps presents another view than a Church headed by the Pope. I personally have no angst towards the Pope or the Catholic church. I simply don't understand it. I hope that you don't consider that "disdain".

 

:thumb:

 

This is how I feel. There would be issues in a non-Catholic church that I would have similar views of. The recent women in church leadership positions is an example. Use of more musical instruments than piano during worship would be an example.

Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

I always took this, especially 15, to mean that we don't need anyone else besides Christ. We don't need a preacher, a pastor, a minister, a pope, a bishop, a priest, a cardinal, a deacon, a elder, an apostle, a Sunday School teacher.

 

Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator that we need for us and God. I am not perfect enough to face God one on one. And no man, no matter the title, can face God for or with me.

 

Only Jesus and His blood that he covers me with can stand beside me and allow me to face God and be judged.

 

So, no matter who that man/woman is or their title, at the end of times, they mean nothing.

 

All that matters is whether Jesus is willing to say, this is one of my sheep.

 

Got a couple quick questions.

 

Who changed the rule about popes marrying... Man or God ?

 

If man changed it ... Where did the authority to do so come from ? I have never known God to give men the right to change his Word at anytime.

 

Why ... Rev.22: 18,19. " For i testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,If any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life,and out of the holy city,and from the things which are written in this book."

I don't understand these posts.

 

First of all, LBBC, if we don't need a mediator, then why go to Church at all? I know you go every Sunday, right? What is the point?

 

We are a Community of Believers, we are the Body of Christ. We meet on the Sabbath to worship God together. Jesus appointed Peter to lead the Church, and the 12 apostles and other early bishops led their respective areas in Communion with each other and the Lord. LBBC, it seems like you are making an argument against organized religion.

 

KYNiners, try not to be upset or take out of context what I am going to say here. Trying to quote scripture on everything just won't cut it simply because the bible is not big enough to address every little individual issue. That is why there have always been priests and spiritual leaders and judges. I don't think that Jesus ever wanted his followers to simply follow The Good Book. The Catholic Church has leaders who, through inspiration from the Bible and God, make decisions on things today that simply aren't directly addressed in the bible.

 

Take, for example, your issue with the Pope marrying. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD be married? No. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD NOT be married? No. The Church leaders had a council, prayed and thought on it. They figured that it was not an effective way to lead a congregation if one has a commitment to a family and to a parish.

 

It makes sense. Being a father (family) takes time and commitment, and the Catholic Church wanted their priests to be, in a sense, married to the Church, to give that time and devotion that would be going to their family to the congregation.

 

To me, believing in Sola Scriptura can be very convenient, because you can say "show me scripture" when someone provides a different belief then yours, and you can say "you are reading it in the wrong context" when someone provides scripture that is different than what you see.

 

This is why the idea of Sola Scriptura does not sit well with me. I am sure that the Lord Almighty knew fine that The Good Book would cause many disagreements among Christians for centuries. IMO, this is why His Son, Jesus Christ, set up a Church built on Peter and the apostles, with leaders to show us the true way to follow Christ.

 

I truly believe that even the Bible says that Christ leaves his authority to the Church, not to the Bible. In the Gospel of John 10:16, Jesus speak about "one flock and one shepherd". In John 21:15-19, Jesus gives His earthly authority to St. Peter when he says "Feed my sheep"

 

The Bible is the cornerstone of our faith but Jesus left his authority to Peter and the following Popes. It is from both the written and spoken Word of God that we find the true way to follow Jesus.

The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, "I am the way the truth and life no man comes to the Father except by me." Matthew also tells us to ask and it will be given unto you. James tells us if we ask amiss it will not be granted to us. So sure we can pray for sick family members. We pray to God, for our family, through Jesus Christ. We don't pray to, for, or through Mary according to the bible.

Is there something spiritually wrong with asking for the intercession of Mary? Because if there is, then anyone who has started a thread asking for prayers has sinned.

I don't understand these posts.

 

First of all, LBBC, if we don't need a mediator, then why go to Church at all? I know you go every Sunday, right? What is the point?

 

We are a Community of Believers, we are the Body of Christ. We meet on the Sabbath to worship God together. Jesus appointed Peter to lead the Church, and the 12 apostles and other early bishops led their respective areas in Communion with each other and the Lord. LBBC, it seems like you are making an argument against organized religion.

 

KYNiners, try not to be upset or take out of context what I am going to say here. Trying to quote scripture on everything just won't cut it simply because the bible is not big enough to address every little individual issue. That is why there have always been priests and spiritual leaders and judges. I don't think that Jesus ever wanted his followers to simply follow The Good Book. The Catholic Church has leaders who, through inspiration from the Bible and God, make decisions on things today that simply aren't directly addressed in the bible.

 

Take, for example, your issue with the Pope marrying. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD be married? No. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD NOT be married? No. The Church leaders had a council, prayed and thought on it. They figured that it was not an effective way to lead a congregation if one has a commitment to a family and to a parish.

 

It makes sense. Being a father (family) takes time and commitment, and the Catholic Church wanted their priests to be, in a sense, married to the Church, to give that time and devotion that would be going to their family to the congregation.

 

To me, believing in Sola Scriptura can be very convenient, because you can say "show me scripture" when someone provides a different belief then yours, and you can say "you are reading it in the wrong context" when someone provides scripture that is different than what you see.

 

This is why the idea of Sola Scriptura does not sit well with me. I am sure that the Lord Almighty knew fine that The Good Book would cause many disagreements among Christians for centuries. IMO, this is why His Son, Jesus Christ, set up a Church built on Peter and the apostles, with leaders to show us the true way to follow Christ.

 

I truly believe that even the Bible says that Christ leaves his authority to the Church, not to the Bible. In the Gospel of John 10:16, Jesus speak about "one flock and one shepherd". In John 21:15-19, Jesus gives His earthly authority to St. Peter when he says "Feed my sheep"

 

The Bible is the cornerstone of our faith but Jesus left his authority to Peter and the following Popes. It is from both the written and spoken Word of God that we find the true way to follow Jesus.

I suppose that this is where we will never, ever, agree. And I could never agree that Jesus left his authority to Peter and the following Popes anymore than he left it with me or you.

I don't understand these posts.

 

First of all, LBBC, if we don't need a mediator, then why go to Church at all? I know you go every Sunday, right? What is the point?

 

We are a Community of Believers, we are the Body of Christ. We meet on the Sabbath to worship God together. Jesus appointed Peter to lead the Church, and the 12 apostles and other early bishops led their respective areas in Communion with each other and the Lord. LBBC, it seems like you are making an argument against organized religion.

 

KYNiners, try not to be upset or take out of context what I am going to say here. Trying to quote scripture on everything just won't cut it simply because the bible is not big enough to address every little individual issue. That is why there have always been priests and spiritual leaders and judges. I don't think that Jesus ever wanted his followers to simply follow The Good Book. The Catholic Church has leaders who, through inspiration from the Bible and God, make decisions on things today that simply aren't directly addressed in the bible.

 

Take, for example, your issue with the Pope marrying. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD be married? No. Does the Bible directly say that priests SHOULD NOT be married? No. The Church leaders had a council, prayed and thought on it. They figured that it was not an effective way to lead a congregation if one has a commitment to a family and to a parish.

 

It makes sense. Being a father (family) takes time and commitment, and the Catholic Church wanted their priests to be, in a sense, married to the Church, to give that time and devotion that would be going to their family to the congregation.

 

To me, believing in Sola Scriptura can be very convenient, because you can say "show me scripture" when someone provides a different belief then yours, and you can say "you are reading it in the wrong context" when someone provides scripture that is different than what you see.

 

This is why the idea of Sola Scriptura does not sit well with me. I am sure that the Lord Almighty knew fine that The Good Book would cause many disagreements among Christians for centuries. IMO, this is why His Son, Jesus Christ, set up a Church built on Peter and the apostles, with leaders to show us the true way to follow Christ.

 

I truly believe that even the Bible says that Christ leaves his authority to the Church, not to the Bible. In the Gospel of John 10:16, Jesus speak about "one flock and one shepherd". In John 21:15-19, Jesus gives His earthly authority to St. Peter when he says "Feed my sheep"

 

The Bible is the cornerstone of our faith but Jesus left his authority to Peter and the following Popes. It is from both the written and spoken Word of God that we find the true way to follow Jesus.

 

 

Absolutely not. The Church is what spreads the word and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

And it uplifts Christians who as they did in Acts meet with each other to learn and grow.

 

As I mention before, I see the argument for Peter. I don't see the argument for the following Popes.

 

The word of God in the form of the Bible can say very very true for milenium. Men in the form of preachers, popes, pastors, ministers, etc etc can warp that word.

 

I don't need someone to tell me what the Bible says. I can pray for wisdom from the Holy Spirit and read it myself.

 

Let me ask a very serious question. For those that rely on religious leaders whether it is a Pope, a Jerry Falwell, a Joel Osteen or whomever, what possibly separates them from the Sanducees and the Pharisees?

 

Remember in Jesus' day, there was no Bible or Holy Scripts for the people to read themselves. But they had to follow what the religious leaders told them.

 

And they were led astray from what their eyes and hearts showed them by those same religious leaders.

 

Christians who rely on religious leaders to blindly lead them, I wonder how different they are from the people of Jesus' day concerning the Pharisees and the Sanducees. And this is NOT just a Catholic concern.

I think that sometimes what Catholics especially in discussions in this forum perceive as disdain for the Pope is merely another side asking questions and providing scripture that perhaps presents another view than a Church headed by the Pope. I personally have no angst towards the Pope or the Catholic church. I simply don't understand it. I hope that you don't consider that "disdain".

 

First, you (the general "you") should know that I am not actually Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic church the first four years of my life, and then after the divorce of my parents, was exposed to a variety of other Christian faiths and in college expanded my knowledge level to include non-Christian faiths. I do consider myself a Christian, but do not peg myself into any particular hole.

 

I haven't seen, on this thread, much of what I consider "disdain" for the Pope. I have experienced this frequently in real life and I bet some on here do feel that way, they just aren't promoting that thought.

 

I look at it this way. Do you hold your pastor, minister, etc, to be a special person? Why? Does he (or she) have more of relationship with God or a claim to Heaven then you do? Most will say no, yet they hold their pastor in a special place. Based on how the Catholic Church has a hierarchy that leads up to the Pope, that places him in an extremely special position, that non-Catholics should be able to respect, even if you don't agree with the Catholic ideas that put him there. I personally have known other "christians" who have disrespected the Pope. I just never understood it. But then again, my nature is one where I tend to accept the differences in people and don't understand when others don't.

:thumb:

 

This is how I feel. There would be issues in a non-Catholic church that I would have similar views of. The recent women in church leadership positions is an example. Use of more musical instruments than piano during worship would be an example.

 

Maybe disdain is not the correct word but the impression I get is that you try with ghusto to show everything you can to prove you are right and we are wrong. Maybe I'm just oversensative but ever since being told to my face by a person I considerd (past tense) a friend that I was going to Hades because I was Catholic I tend to get my hackles up when someone tries to disprove tenents of my religion.

 

I personally don't believe that the Bible is a 100% historically accurate document. I don't KNOW that it's not any more then you KNOW that it is. I believe that everything that is in the Bible has been intrepreted by man who is incapable of KNOWING the true nature of God and is therefore incapable of intpreting his words with 100% accuracy. How many times does the word "slave" appear in the Bible? Even in the parables of Jesus he speaks of slaves in accepting tones. If you believe that the Bible is word-for-word a 100% accurate interpretation of God's will then logically shouldn't you believe that slavery is acceptable? All of the divisions in Christianity have come about because MEN interpreted what they read in scripture differently and since we can't KNOW the true nature of God we can't KNOW that scripture is to be taken word for word.

I suppose that this is where we will never, ever, agree. And I could never agree that Jesus left his authority to Peter and the following Popes anymore than he left it with me or you.

 

It is similar to how the abortion issue always boils down to when each side believes that life begins.

 

We won't ever agree and it all boils down to that basic points- Sola Scriptura or not. I really believe that the Bible affirms my belief that you need more than the Bible.

 

If anyone wants to honestly look into the issue, which no one really does, check out "21 Reasons to reject Sola Scriptura" by Joel Peters, which, conveniently, someone put on the internet for free.

Edited July 24, 200818 yr by cch5432
not starting another thread as I stated, because this is too time-consuming already

I personally don't believe that the Bible is a 100% historically accurate document. I don't KNOW that it's not any more then you KNOW that it is. I believe that everything that is in the Bible has been intrepreted by man who is incapable of KNOWING the true nature of God and is therefore incapable of intpreting his words with 100% accuracy. How many times does the word "slave" appear in the Bible? Even in the parables of Jesus he speaks of slaves in accepting tones. If you believe that the Bible is word-for-word a 100% accurate interpretation of God's will then logically shouldn't you believe that slavery is acceptable? All of the divisions in Christianity have come about because MEN interpreted what they read in scripture differently and since we can't KNOW the true nature of God we can't KNOW that scripture is to be taken word for word.

 

:thumb:

 

I must have awakened in the wrong universe this morning. I am agreeing with you way too much!

Absolutely not. The Church is what spreads the word and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

And it uplifts Christians who as they did in Acts meet with each other to learn and grow.

 

As I mention before, I see the argument for Peter. I don't see the argument for the following Popes.

 

The word of God in the form of the Bible can say very very true for milenium. Men in the form of preachers, popes, pastors, ministers, etc etc can warp that word.

 

I don't need someone to tell me what the Bible says. I can pray for wisdom from the Holy Spirit and read it myself.

 

Let me ask a very serious question. For those that rely on religious leaders whether it is a Pope, a Jerry Falwell, a Joel Osteen or whomever, what possibly separates them from the Sanducees and the Pharisees?

 

Remember in Jesus' day, there was no Bible or Holy Scripts for the people to read themselves. But they had to follow what the religious leaders told them.

 

And they were led astray from what their eyes and hearts showed them by those same religious leaders.

 

Christians who rely on religious leaders to blindly lead them, I wonder how different they are from the people of Jesus' day concerning the Pharisees and the Sanducees. And this is NOT just a Catholic concern.

I believe it is important to draw from private and public interpretation of the Bible. I believe statements like the bolded are dangerous, because it men, preachers, priests, etc. can warp the word of God, then why can't you warp it? You need both personal reading and guidance from men and women who devote their entire lives to following God.

 

I don't blindly follow Church leaders. If I did, then I wouldn't be here defending my faith. I find more reasons to be Catholic every day. I feel you are using the word "rely" in a manner different than I would. I "rely" on the Church leaders for spiritual advice, direction, and insight. I don't rely on them for salvation- in fact, no matter what I do, I don't think I will earn salvation- it will be by the grace of God that I am saved. I am actually insulted that you accuse me of being like the followers of the Pharisees or Sadducees. The Catholic Church is not all about following the law as the Pharisees were doing, but about following Jesus. I would leave the Catholic Church if it were anything different than that.

Is there something spiritually wrong with asking for the intercession of Mary? Because if there is, then anyone who has started a thread asking for prayers has sinned.

 

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5

 

 

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. Heb 9:15-18

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5

 

 

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. Heb 9:15-18

So am I spiritually wrong for asking for your prayers for me?

So am I spiritually wrong for asking for your prayers for me?

 

You aren't wrong but if you want the Father to hear you must go through your mediator Jesus Christ.

So am I spiritually wrong for asking for your prayers for me?

 

Is asking for prayers and requesting mediation actually the same?

You aren't wrong but if you want the Father to hear you must go through your mediator Jesus Christ.

So you praying for someone else doesn't get to the Father?