The Pope

[spindoc]

So, help me understand the need for the Pope if upon Christ's death on the cross that the "veil was rent in twain". If we all have access into the holy of holies, why the need for the Pope?

[Run To State]

And no praying to Peter? Considering he's the rock the church was built upon.

O glorious Saint Peter, who,

in return for thy strong and generous faith,

thy profound and sincere humility,

and they burning love,

wast rewarded by Jesus Christ

with singular privileges,

and, in particular,

with the leadership of the other Apostles

and the primacy of the whole Church,

of which thou wast made the foundation stone,

do thou obtain for us the grace of a lively faith,

that shall not fear to profess itself openly,

in its entirety and in all of its manifestations,

even to the shedding of blood,

if occasion should demand it,

and to sacrifice of life itself rather than surrender.

Obtain for us likewise,

a sincere loyalty to our holy mother, the Church;

grant that we may ever remain most closely

and sincerely united to the Roman Pontiff,

who is the heir of thy faith

and of thy authority,

the one, true, visible Head of the Catholic Church,

that mystic ark outside of which there is no salvation.

Grant, moreover, that we may follow,

in all humility and meekness,

her teaching and her advice,

and may be obedient to all her precepts,

in order to be able here on earth

to enjoy a peace that is sure and undisturbed,

and to attain one day in heaven to everlasting happiness.

 

Amen.

[cch5432]

Wow, and yet you pray to Mary? Color me confused.

Just because the prayer to Mary is more popular does not mean that we don't pray to Peter, as RTS said.

The Pope has no class. Hasn't he ever heard that you shouldn't wear white after Labor Day?

 

Seriously, if I'm not catholic, why should I care if the Pope is Biblical?

 

Rmom gave the usual verses for defense of the Church having a Pope. I'm not sure that I buy into those verses instructing the Church having a Father (literal translation of "pope") or leader beyond Peter.

 

But I think we find in the Old Testament wise advice on administering a large body.

 

Exodus 18:13-26

 

13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, "What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?"

15 Moses answered him, "Because the people come to me to seek God's will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God's decrees and laws."

17 Moses' father-in-law replied, "What you are doing is not good. 18 You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone. 19 Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you. You must be the people's representative before God and bring their disputes to him. 20 Teach them the decrees and laws, and show them the way to live and the duties they are to perform. 21 But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you. 23 If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied." 24 Moses listened to his father-in-law and did everything he said. 25 He chose capable men from all Israel and made them leaders of the people, officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 26 They served as judges for the people at all times. The difficult cases they brought to Moses, but the simple ones they decided themselves.

:thumb: Excellent post. It isn't just the Pope- we have Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

[cch5432]

So, help me understand the need for the Pope if upon Christ's death on the cross that the "veil was rent in twain". If we all have access into the holy of holies, why the need for the Pope?

The Pope is a spiritual leader. The Church exists in order to help us more fully be able to follow Jesus. As HHSDad cited, the Pope is there to settle larger disputes that some Catholic may be troubled on personally.

 

For example, when the whole world accepted Birth Control, the Pope prayed on it, thought on it, and talked with other leaders. He released Humanae Vitae and was ridiculed, but the document provides very insightful thought. We don't worship the Pope by any means, but the Pope has very important things to say that are relative to our ability to follow Jesus. Because I honestly don't believe that being a Christian is accepting Jesus as your personal savior. You have to live your life like him as well, and the Church hierarchy only helps us to do that.

[spindoc]

Can't understand the need to pray to anyone but God. Has Mary answered any of your prayers? Peter?

[cch5432]

Can't understand the need to pray to anyone but God. Has Mary answered any of your prayers? Peter?

 

We don't worship Mary. We don't worship Peter. We don't worship the Pope. We honor them. We pray for their intercession on our behalf.

[spindoc]

We don't worship Mary. We don't worship Peter. We don't worship the Pope. We honor them. We pray for their intercession on our behalf.

Peter's dead, Mary's dead, however Christ is alive and makes intercession for you. Why not pray to him?

[rockmom]

Can't understand the need to pray to anyone but God. Has Mary answered any of your prayers? Peter?

 

 

God answers our prayers. Mary and Peter, and even St. Angela, intercede on our behalf.

 

 

Kind of like, your kid wants to go to a rock concert. They go to your wife, pleading their case, because they know they're going to need her in their corner. They all come to you, you ask your wife what she thinks, she says OK, and then you give in!

 

Simplified, very shallow example.

[rockmom]

Peter's dead, Mary's dead, however Christ is alive and makes intercession for you. Why not pray to him?

 

 

Their souls are not dead. Souls do not die.

[cch5432]

Peter's dead, Mary's dead, however Christ is alive and makes intercession for you. Why not pray to him?

We do. In fact, Jesus said "This is my body and this is my blood. Do this in rememberance of me." We offer up the ultimate prayer to Jesus, through His Body and His Blood, every Sunday.

 

I don't see what bothers you. You don't like that Catholic pray on the intercession of the saints? Do you ever ask anyone who may be "higher up" or "better than" you for help or advice? Or is that equal to worshiping them?

[5wide]

Seriously, if I'm not catholic, why should I care if the Pope is Biblical?

 

Rmom gave the usual verses for defense of the Church having a Pope. I'm not sure that I buy into those verses instructing the Church having a Father (literal translation of "pope") or leader beyond Peter.

 

:thumb:

 

I've taken part in some good, and informative, discussions about the Catholic Church, in general, and the pope, in particular. I've learned quite a bit about their beliefs (thanks largely to Rockmom).

 

I don't think the acknowledgement of a worldwide leader (the pope) is automatically a bad thing. It doesn't mean all Catholics are lost. Conversely, the choice to be non-Catholic, and thus, to not acknowledge the "leader" status of the pope is not bad or wrong, either. It bottom line is always faith in Jesus Christ. The pope can't save anyone. Acceptance or rejection of him as the leader of the church has no bearing on my salvation. It's all about Jesus Christ...and that's a personal matter. Only God and the person in question can truly know if they're saved or lost.

 

Protestants, Catholics, or any other branch/denomination do not have the market cornered on Christianity.

[spindoc]

We do. In fact, Jesus said "This is my body and this is my blood. Do this in rememberance of me." We offer up the ultimate prayer to Jesus, through His Body and His Blood, every Sunday.

 

I don't see what bothers you. You don't like that Catholic pray on the intercession of the saints? Do you ever ask anyone who may be "higher up" or "better than" you for help or advice? Or is that equal to worshiping them?

I'm not trying to be abrasive, only asking questions. I can't understand why anyone needs someone to pray for them to get access to God. We have access to the throne through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. When the veil was rent in twain, we don't need someone other than Christ to intercede for us. When Christ instructed us how to pray, he never mentioned Peter, never mentioned Mary or anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact Peter was one he commanded to pray that way.

[5wide]

God answers our prayers. Mary and Peter, and even St. Angela, intercede on our behalf.

 

 

Kind of like, your kid wants to go to a rock concert. They go to your wife, pleading their case, because they know they're going to need her in their corner. They all come to you, you ask your wife what she thinks, she says OK, and then you give in!

 

Simplified, very shallow example.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. If a person is comfortable doing it and it helps them, then have at it. And, I also agree with your point that they are not "dead". But, I can tell you why I don't and would not do it...

 

From a logical perspective, it doesn't make sense. I can appeal directly to Jesus and He can intercede for me. So, if I can go directly to the Man, it seems unnecessary to me to appeal to anyone less.

[rockmom]

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

 

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

 

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

 

Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

 

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

 

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

[spindoc]

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. If a person is comfortable doing it and it helps them, then have at it. And, I also agree with your point that they are not "dead". But, I can tell you why I don't and would not do it...

 

From a logical perspective, it doesn't make sense. I can appeal directly to Jesus and He can intercede for me. So, if I can go directly to the Man, it seems unnecessary to me to appeal to anyone less.

Exactly!