The Economics of Education

[ladiesbballcoach]

Don't most professions have "unpaid hours?" Mine does.

 

I don't think so. My father-in-law was a engineer for CSX. He didn't.

My uncles are truck drivers, don't believe they did. My dad worked construction, he didn't. My mother worked for a bank, she didn't.

My sister was a beautician and she didn't. My mother-in-law works for an insurance company, she doesn't. My cousin is a doctor and she doesn't. My niece is a nurse and she doesn't.

 

A key thing is that when they went home, their work day was over. When I go home, I still can have 2-3 hours of grading papers, doing lesson plans, etc.

[cch5432]

I don't think so. My father-in-law was a engineer for CSX. He didn't.

My uncles are truck drivers, don't believe they did. My dad worked construction, he didn't. My mother worked for a bank, she didn't.

My sister was a beautician and she didn't. My mother-in-law works for an insurance company, she doesn't. My cousin is a doctor and she doesn't. My niece is a nurse and she doesn't.

 

A key thing is that when they went home, their work day was over. When I go home, I still can have 2-3 hours of grading papers, doing lesson plans, etc.

What do you think about people who travel for their jobs? Being miles and miles away from home certainly count as off the job work hours.

[Beechwoodfan]

My husband is salaried and he travels often on weekends and evenings for which he does not get paid. Problems at work, he has to go in. He is responsible 24/7. Definately does not get paid 24 hours a day. However, he loves his job.

 

I am a nurse and, as you said, when I clock out my job is done! I love it.

 

Anytime you are salaried, most likely you are going to work more hours than you originally thought. Obviously teachers are not the only salaried people in the world.

 

 

That being said, I could not be a teacher for anything. It is definately a calling. My sister teaches and I know there are phone calls from parents, complaints from parents (or worse, no parental involvement at all), rude, disrespectful, potentially violent students.......as LBBC can attest, the list goes on and on. Additionally, she chaperones dances and goes to some of her students sporting events. I cant imagine doing that. The only plus side I see is that she gets weekends and holidays off and has more time off in the summer than I do.

 

Oddly enough, she loves her job and gets a lot of satisfaction from it. I guess it is different strokes for different folks.

[HT721]

How would you qualify what the best teachers are? It's hard to judge a teacher, the closest thing we have our test scores but from my experience with teachers 99% of them will tell you, that you can't judge a teacher by their test scores because they fluctuate from class to class and a lot of it is luck of the draw and what students you get in a particular year.

[Habib]

The pay keeps many qualified people from pursuing the job which CAN effect the quality of education. CCH's theory is correct IMO.

 

I agree.

[Hatz]

How many teaching jobs go unfilled? For those that do go unfilled, why does the NEA oppose allowing public school systems from paying more for those hard to fill slots?

In some industries, the turnover rate is 100% or more. Please provide some evidence to support your claim that 3/4 of teachers leave the profession within five years (I am skeptical but willing to be convinced). Regardless, the fact remains that schools have no trouble filling available positions with qualified applicants in most areas.

 

I acknowledge that some schools do experience difficulty finding qualified applicants in some areas like special education, math, and science, and I believe that schools should be able to pay teachers in those areas more in order to hire and retain qualified people. Unfortunately, the NEA disagrees and believes in basing pay on factors other than merit or supply and demand.

 

 

I know of plenty of jobs that are not filled in our education system. Many times schools will take responsibilities from a vacated position and will roll them into a few other teachers and that will save them the money of paying for that position.

 

What does the NEA have to do with local hiring and salary? First I've heard of that and to be honest it smacks of someone who is spouting a party anti-NEA line rather than being familiar with the structure of teachers and school systems.

[Mr.Fundamental]

For the record, the point of this thread was not "if" they are underpaid. I am going under the assumption that they are underpaid. So the question is "why" they are underpaid. The two are of course related though.

 

With the amount of education, and their benefit to society, WHY are they underpaid.

 

I think that part of it has to do with history! Teaching, many moons ago was a profession that was looked down upon, the phrase "those who can not teach". It is coming around with great agents for teachers such as KEA:thumb:

[Hasbeen]

"A pilot study conducted by Barnes, Crowe, and Schaefer (2007) concluded that teacher turnover costs taxpayers $7.3 billion dollars yearly."

 

Surprising. I would think that the difference in salary between a teacher with 1-3 years experience versus a teacher with tenure would more than offset any new teacher development costs especially when one considers there are always staff development functions underway at all levels.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Surprising. I would think that the difference in salary between a teacher with 1-3 years experience versus a teacher with tenure would more than offset any new teacher development costs especially when one considers there are always staff development functions underway at all levels.

 

Think so? Think about the cost of college to train the new teachers, most schools offer an MAT program which is 36 hrs or 12 classes. When you multiple that by roughly $800 per class in the area that I am from. You are looking at $9,600 per teacher.:eek: Then you have to add the in-service hours (which are contracted) KTIP, also schools are required to pay half of the teacher-retirement for each teacher per year!

[leatherneck]

How would you qualify what the best teachers are? It's hard to judge a teacher, the closest thing we have our test scores but from my experience with teachers 99% of them will tell you, that you can't judge a teacher by their test scores because they fluctuate from class to class and a lot of it is luck of the draw and what students you get in a particular year.

 

Trust me, the adminstrators and parents can tell you which teachers in a school district are the good ones and which ones are not. Admittedly, it can be pretty subjective, but that's the case in many jobs. Unless you are doing piece meal work where its easy to see who produces the most pieces per hour, almost any promotion or bonus program is based heavily on subjective matters. There are great teachers, average teachers and poor teachers in each school district. Once they are tenured, there is little that can be done to remove the poor ones. And because of the KEA, the poor ones get paid the same as the great ones, do they not? Like most other unions, the union administrators fight tooth and nail against the great ones getting paid more than the poor ones as they want the workers loyalty to be to the union and not to the employer.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Trust me, the adminstrators and parents can tell you which teachers in a school district are the good ones and which ones are not. Admittedly, it can be pretty subjective, but that's the case in many jobs. Unless you are doing piece meal work where its easy to see who produces the most pieces per hour, almost any promotion or bonus program is based heavily on subjective matters. There are great teachers, average teachers and poor teachers in each school district. Once they are tenured, there is little that can be done to remove the poor ones. And because of the KEA, the poor ones get paid the same as the great ones, do they not? Like most other unions, the union administrators fight tooth and nail against the great ones getting paid more than the poor ones as they want the workers loyalty to be to the union and not to the employer.

 

Without the union, our health care cost would have been ridiculous!!! Lest we forget, the power of the union.

[Hasbeen]

Think so? Think about the cost of college to train the new teachers, most schools offer an MAT program which is 36 hrs or 12 classes. When you multiple that by roughly $800 per class in the area that I am from. You are looking at $9,600 per teacher.:eek: Then you have to add the in-service hours (which are contracted) KTIP, also schools are required to pay half of the teacher-retirement for each teacher per year!

 

 

Why would you include the cost of college to train new teachers? That expense is paid for by the teacher before even applying. I don't know what MAT is, but as I said earlier, continued staff development is an ongoing function so the question is what is the monetary difference in the training classes of new teachers vs. the continued training of more experienced teachers?

 

It has been my understanding that eliminating a teacher before he/she has reached tenure can save a district a considerable amount of money.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Why would you include the cost of college to train new teachers? That expense is paid for by the teacher before even applying. I don't know what MAT is, but as I said earlier, continued staff development is an ongoing function so the question is what is the monetary difference in the training classes of new teachers vs. the continued training of more experienced teachers?

 

It has been my understanding that eliminating a teacher before he/she has reached tenure can save a district a considerable amount of money.

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You are right about this, but just had a brainstorm... maybe they measure the cost of the tax payers by concluding that the teachers at year four are more valuable overall then the teachers at year one... just an idea.

[Hasbeen]

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You are right about this, but just had a brainstorm... maybe they measure the cost of the tax payers by concluding that the teachers at year four are more valuable overall then the teachers at year one... just an idea.

 

 

If you're going to operate under the theory that administrators are going to put education, ethics, and results over money, this discussion is over. You win and I concede. :lol:

[Mr.Fundamental]

If you're going to operate under the theory that administrators are going to put education, ethics, and results over money, this discussion is over. You win and I concede. :lol:

 

:lol: That will be the day:jump:

 

In all seriousness I have to be honest, my administration is very understanding, as long as you do your job! But I realize this is not the case everywhere!