The Economics of Education

[hokiefromky]

As far as underpayment, I am in this camp, I have just completed 188 hrs of college credit. Most people would call this person with this many hours a Dr.

However, my salary even when I get up in years will never pass 65,000, whereas, a person with this many hrs, would, easliy make 85,000+.

 

In Kentucky, a school year consists of 185 required days of attendance. If you add 15 days for in-service and preparing your room for the school year (which is generous), that totals 200 days of work for the average teacher. A year round worker has 260 days of work (5 days times 52 weeks).

 

$65,000 divided by 200 days = $325.00 per day.

$85,000 divided by 260 days = $326.92 per day.

 

If that person who makes $85,000 a year took an extra 2 or 3 months off of work, they would be paid the same rate as the teacher.

 

There are summer positions in every school district required for curriculum mapping, planning, etc. Take one of these jobs during the summer and you'll make what other professionals are making. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the benefit of having your summers free.

[Mr.Fundamental]

In Kentucky, a school year consists of 185 required days of attendance. If you add 15 days for in-service and preparing your room for the school year (which is generous), that totals 200 days of work for the average teacher. A year round worker has 260 days of work (5 days times 52 weeks).

 

$65,000 divided by 200 days = $325.00 per day.$85,000 divided by 260 days = $326.92 per day.

 

If that person who makes $85,000 a year took an extra 2 or 3 months off of work, they would be paid the same rate as the teacher.

 

There are summer positions in every school district required for curriculum mapping, planning, etc. Take one of these jobs during the summer and you'll make what other professionals are making. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the benefit of having your summers free.

 

Man, there is alot here to talk about...

 

1. show me a teacher who makes $65,000 no coaching.

2. Show me one teacher that takes off for 2 or 3 months, without attending a seminar, thinking about kids, going to a teacher store, studying, meeting some requirement by the school system. (I am glad that you brought that up, though because of the misconception) Also, through in coaching, as a non-tenured person, show me when you get more than two weeks off a summer.

3. I have to take two jobs, when I am "supposed one of the most important jobs in America"

4. The average worker doesn't take off for an holidays:confused:

[acemona]

The reason they are underpaid is that it was originally a "woman's" profession and women, historically were underpaid.

 

They are also underpaid because the better the job is done the more it costs.

 

Small Independent or small county systems that work hard to keep student/teacher ratios low (because that is best practice) spend more on personell than do larger schools with bigger class sizes. As you continue to reduce the class size your cost goes up and no one wants to pay that extra amount.

 

I will concede that private/parochial schools do a good job, if you will concede that once adjustments are made for the socio-economics of the students - that the public schools do just as well.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Well said ACE

[MoreheadEagle]

Man, there is alot here to talk about...

 

1. show me a teacher who makes $65,000 no coaching.

2. Show me one teacher that takes off for 2 or 3 months, without attending a seminar, thinking about kids, going to a teacher store, studying, meeting some requirement by the school system. (I am glad that you brought that up, though because of the misconception) Also, through in coaching, as a non-tenured person, show me when you get more than two weeks off a summer.

3. I have to take two jobs, when I am "supposed one of the most important jobs in America"

4. The average worker doesn't take off for an holidays:confused:

 

There's no standing ovation emoticon so I'll use this. :ylsuper::dancingpa:ylsuper:

[leatherneck]

[/b]

 

Without the union, our health care cost would have been ridiculous!!! Lest we forget, the power of the union.

 

 

Then again, without the union maybe the state could afford to pay the full cost of health insurance for teachers and could afford to pay the good and great teachers what they deserve to be paid.:banana:.

[True blue (and gold)]

In Kentucky, a school year consists of 185 required days of attendance. If you add 15 days for in-service and preparing your room for the school year (which is generous), that totals 200 days of work for the average teacher. A year round worker has 260 days of work (5 days times 52 weeks).

 

$65,000 divided by 200 days = $325.00 per day.

$85,000 divided by 260 days = $326.92 per day.

 

If that person who makes $85,000 a year took an extra 2 or 3 months off of work, they would be paid the same rate as the teacher.

 

There are summer positions in every school district required for curriculum mapping, planning, etc. Take one of these jobs during the summer and you'll make what other professionals are making. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the benefit of having your summers free.

 

So, your average year round worker (5 days a week/52 weeks) doesn't take any vacation?

 

I've been teaching for 12 years now, have a masters degree in chemistry, get small stipends for sponsoring the science club and senior class and come NO WHERE close to making $65,000.

 

Do you count the 6-8 hours I spend every Sunday at school grading papers and preparing lessons as days of work? Or as vacation? 36 weeks in a typical school year, so add on another 36 days to my 200.

 

Do you count the 4 or 5 nights a week (and many times Saturdays) that I volunteer at my school working with extracurricular and athletic programs and get home at 10 or 11 o'clock work? Or vacation? I'll answer that one for you, its voluntary, so don't consider it.

 

Oh, I usually do work summer school...not for the extra $1000 it puts in my pocket for 12 days of work (let's see...that's less than $100/day!), but because there are kids that need that time in the summer. So add me on another 12 days.

 

Let's not even talk about the time in which I was an actual coach and not just a volunteer....no? The additional salary makes up for that? Yeah, right.

 

Need me to train to be a KTIP teacher? Ok...a SBDM teacher? Ok....go to curriculum development training? Ok....Advanced Placement training? Ok...CPR/First Aid training? Ok...Positive discipline training? Ok...wait, there's another week.

 

I have to chaperone (be in charge of actually) the prom, weekend field trips, dances, and club and sport fundraisers....let's be generous and say only one additional week.

 

 

So, let's move that salary WAY down and those days WAY up and recheck your numbers. (For those that can't, I 'm sure that it is your math teacher's fault - he/she had too many days off in the summer)

 

I don't want more money. I am fine with knowing that the only students that I have that graduate, go to college and start their own profession that will be making less money than me the first year are....well, those that will be teachers.

 

The one thing that I want is respect. I have it from my students...sure would be nice to have it from the rest of the those that choose not to be a teacher, instead of being told to enjoy having my summers "off".

[Mr.Fundamental]

Then again, without the union maybe the state could afford to pay the full cost of health insurance for teachers and could afford to pay the good and great teachers what they deserve to be paid.:banana:.

 

Please explain?:confused:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Fundamental]

So, your average year round worker (5 days a week/52 weeks) doesn't take any vacation?

 

I've been teaching for 12 years now, have a masters degree in chemistry, get small stipends for sponsoring the science club and senior class and come NO WHERE close to making $65,000.

 

Do you count the 6-8 hours I spend every Sunday at school grading papers and preparing lessons as days of work? Or as vacation? 36 weeks in a typical school year, so add on another 36 days to my 200.

 

Do you count the 4 or 5 nights a week (and many times Saturdays) that I volunteer at my school working with extracurricular and athletic programs and get home at 10 or 11 o'clock work? Or vacation? I'll answer that one for you, its voluntary, so don't consider it.

 

Oh, I usually do work summer school...not for the extra $1000 it puts in my pocket for 12 days of work (let's see...that's less than $100/day!), but because there are kids that need that time in the summer. So add me on another 12 days.

 

Let's not even talk about the time in which I was an actual coach and not just a volunteer....no? The additional salary makes up for that? Yeah, right.

 

Need me to train to be a KTIP teacher? Ok...a SBDM teacher? Ok....go to curriculum development training? Ok....Advanced Placement training? Ok...CPR/First Aid training? Ok...Positive discipline training? Ok...wait, there's another week.

 

I have to chaperone (be in charge of actually) the prom, weekend field trips, dances, and club and sport fundraisers....let's be generous and say only one additional week.

 

 

So, let's move that salary WAY down and those days WAY up and recheck your numbers. (For those that can't, I 'm sure that it is your math teacher's fault - he/she had too many days off in the summer)

 

I don't want more money. I am fine with knowing that the only students that I have that graduate, go to college and start their own profession that will be making less money than me the first year are....well, those that will be teachers.

 

The one thing that I want is respect. I have it from my students...sure would be nice to have it from the rest of the those that choose not to be a teacher, instead of being told to enjoy having my summers "off".

 

 

:thumb::dancingpa:thumb::thumb::dancingpa:cool::ylsuper:

 

You got mine... but then again, I am in the trenches with you:banana:

[AcesFull]

I know of plenty of jobs that are not filled in our education system. Many times schools will take responsibilities from a vacated position and will roll them into a few other teachers and that will save them the money of paying for that position.

 

What does the NEA have to do with local hiring and salary? First I've heard of that and to be honest it smacks of someone who is spouting a party anti-NEA line rather than being familiar with the structure of teachers and school systems.

If a school elects not to refill a position, then how necessary was the position in the first place? How many public school systems pay a premium to math and science teachers to make sure that they have a qualified pool of applicants and can retain the teachers that they hire? How many use the same pay scale without regard to the subject matter being taught or the availability of qualified teachers in those particular subject areas?

 

Then NEA and their state affiliates have consistently fought against merit pay for teachers. I assume that they also oppose drawing distinctions between teachers in different subject areas. Am I mistaken?

 

Extra pay for teachers in hard-to-fill subjects. This kind of idea leads to trouble and the thinking that some types of teachers are more valuable than others, NEA believes. -

from the horse's mouth

[Mr.Fundamental]

If a school elects not to refill a position, then how necessary was the position in the first place? How many public school systems pay a premium to math and science teachers to make sure that they have a qualified pool of applicants and can retain the teachers that they hire? How many use the same pay scale without regard to the subject matter being taught or the availability of qualified teachers in those particular subject areas?

 

Then NEA and their state affiliates have consistently fought against merit pay for teachers. I assume that they also oppose drawing distinctions between teachers in different subject areas. Am I mistaken?

 

I could understand if the NEA did not support drawing distinctions between teachers... that is like saying the private school teachers are better then the public school teachers. IMVHO.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Back to the topic...

 

I think this would be fair.

 

Teacher's Salary

 

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year!

 

It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do--baby sit!

 

We can get that for less than minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked, not any of that silly planning time.

 

That would be $19.50 a day (7:00 AM to 3:30 (or so) PM with just 25 min. off for lunch).

 

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

 

NOW...

How many do they teach in a class, 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! we're not going to pay them for any vacations.

 

LET'S SEE....

That's $585 x 180= $105,300 per year.

 

What about those special teachers and the one s with master's degrees?

 

Well, we could pay them minimum wage, and just to be fair, round it off to $7.00 an hour. That would be $7 x 6 1/2 hours x 30 children x 180 days = $245,700 per year.

 

Wait a minute--there's something wrong here!

 

Average teacher salary $50,000/180 days = $277/per day/30 students = $9.23/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student. A very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even try - w ith your help - to EDUCATE your kids!

 

WHAT A DEAL....

 

And the parents don't even have to buy us pizza!

 

Make a teacher smile; send this to someone else who appreciates teachers...

[AcesFull]

I could understand if the NEA did not support drawing distinctions between teachers... that is like saying the private school teachers are better then the public school teachers. IMVHO.

Private companies fill positions based on market forces all the time and it seems to work fairly well. Math and science teachers are more likely to be lured into the private sector for better pay than teachers of English, history, etc. If the market price for somebody with a math or science degree in the private sector is higher than for somebody with another degree, then school systems should be allowed to pay them higher salaries and there is nothing unfair about doing so.

[Mr.Fundamental]

What do you do with the elementary teachers who teach math and science?

[Under the Lights]

Private companies fill positions based on market forces all the time and it seems to work fairly well. Math and science teachers are more likely to be lured into the private sector for better pay than teachers of English, history, etc. If the market price for somebody with a math or science degree in the private sector is higher than for somebody with another degree, then school systems should be allowed to pay them higher salaries and there is nothing unfair about doing so.

 

I completely understand your economic analysis of the education profession. In fact, I kind of agree. But here is my beef with that point: Are educators, particularly those in the K-12 range, not providing additional benefits to society as a whole other than direct education? Is there a way to economically quantify the fact that most of our population can read and write? What is that worth? Is it worth more than being able to add and subtract? Is that worth more than understanding our past, how the human mind works, or basic economics? How do you quantify that?

 

I think the real question you need to ask is why. Why aren't people banging down the door to teach math and science? Maybe because for many THEIR educational system failed them, and they aren't very good at either. For those that are, why would you want to when so many other lucrative jobs can be easily had with their skills?

 

Finally, the main problem I have with your argument is that people simply WON'T pay the "market price". Everyone wants their child to have a great education, but they don't want to empower the educators with the means to give it to their child. "Not in my backyard" they say.