The Economics of Education

[Mr.Fundamental]

Sign me up LBBC

[ladiesbballcoach]

I have been saying this for years... keep the numbers low... but as you point out no one wants to pony up the money

 

Isn't it interesting that the mindset of the community schools with the lower teacher/student ratio of 40-50-60 years ago is being seen as a good thing again?

 

But for some reason consolidation and the rush to big schools is winning out.

[AcesFull]

I knew I would get the nuts and bolts econ answer from you. :thumb:

 

The problem I have with paying math and science more is that you are now placing a higher value on teaching math and science than being able to read and write? See where I'm going with this?

Not at all. People should be paid based on the value of the service that they perform - not upon the value of the product that they produce. Should workers in a US mint be paid more than their counterparts in the EPA? Should gold mine workers be paid more than coal miners based on the value of the material being mined?

 

As I stated earlier, capitalism and education are not good bed mates. One seeks to maximize profits, the other to promote the "common good". You cannot use capitalistic values and measures to assess an entity whose primary goal is the exact opposite of capitalism.

We live in a capitalist society and running our schools according to socialist ideals does both school employees and the students that they teach a disservice. Good work should be rewarded based on the value of the service being performed not upon the needs and wants of the person providing the service. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs has no place in a free society, including our schools.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Isn't it interesting that the mindset of the community schools with the lower teacher/student ratio of 40-50-60 years ago is being seen as a good thing again?

 

But for some reason consolidation and the rush to big schools is winning out.

 

That is what I was pointing at in another thread:thumb:

[Mr.Fundamental]

Not at all. People should be paid based on the value of the service that they perform - not upon the value of the product that they produce. Should workers in a US mint be paid more than their counterparts in the EPA? Should gold mine workers be paid more than coal miners based on the value of the material being mined?

 

We live in a capitalist society and running our schools according to socialist ideals does both school employees and the students that they teach a disservice. Good work should be rewarded based on the value of the service being performed not upon the needs and wants of the person providing the service. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs has no place in a free society, including our schools.

 

So again how do you say what an intanginable(sp) thing is worth! How do you put the value on rewarding teachers. We know that every school system has a different set of kids. Period, kids are each unique, so how do you first measure that uniquness and then determine if the teacher has reached that child's potential?:confused:

[Mr.Fundamental]

Isn't it interesting that the mindset of the community schools with the lower teacher/student ratio of 40-50-60 years ago is being seen as a good thing again?

 

But for some reason consolidation and the rush to big schools is winning out.

 

One word MONEY!!!

[AcesFull]

:lol:

 

The sad part is this is how most people think. You and I can laugh about it, because we both know the joys, headaches, heartaches, and so for of teaching. However, most people just look at the bottom line, a test number.:madman:

 

I would like for people to step in your shoes for a day, then maybe, we all could get paid.

:banana:

 

Just for the record I teach the 5th poorest community in the state.:cry:

You might be surprised to learn that I agree with you that teachers should not be paid based on the outcomes of their students. If anything, teachers at inner city schools should be paid more than their suburban counterparts because those schools have a more difficult time attracting good teachers.

 

I think most people understand that a teacher can do a great job in an inner city school and their student's test scores are not likely to approach those of a mediocre teacher teaching in a more affluent district.

 

I believe in testing as one measure of teacher performance but test results can be very misleading if they are misapplied. In the private sector, one's immediate supervisor usually plays the biggest role in assessing a worker's performance and IMO, that is how it should be in education as wells. The same goes for school management, up to and including the superintendent.

[AcesFull]

So again how do you say what an intanginable(sp) thing is worth! How do you put the value on rewarding teachers. We know that every school system has a different set of kids. Period, kids are each unique, so how do you first measure that uniquness and then determine if the teacher has reached that child's potential?:confused:

There is no intangible here. A teacher is worth the salary that it takes to hire one and retain one at a reasonable rate. That is what any worker is worth and that is how the salaries of those of us who work for private companies are determined. The system is not perfect but it seems to work pretty well.

 

I would ask anybody who thinks that they are underpaid, "What are you doing to address the situation?" If the answer is nothing, then that person is not underpaid. They are content with their current plight in life or else they would be working to improve their lots. Personal situations sometimes force people to stay with a job with which they are dissatisfied in the short term, but anybody who whines for years about being underpaid gets no sympathy from me.

[Mr.Fundamental]

If the tax payers do not wish to pay, all I can do is still hit up my Union, and have them lobby for me. By the way did you know it is actually not lawful for teachers to strike.

[ladiesbballcoach]

There is no intangible here. A teacher is worth the salary that it takes to hire one and retain one at a reasonable rate. That is what any worker is worth and that is how the salaries of those of us who work for private companies are determined. The system is not perfect but it seems to work pretty well.

 

I would ask anybody who thinks that they are underpaid, "What are you doing to address the situation?" If the answer is nothing, then that person is not underpaid. They are content with their current plight in life or else they would be working to improve their lots. Personal situations sometimes force people to stay with a job with which they are dissatisfied in the short term, but anybody who whines for years about being underpaid gets no sympathy from me.

 

If a person is motivated solely by money, which too many in this country are, I would agree with you.

 

Some can choose to stay at their jobs knowing that they may help some kid change the path of their job while still wanting to bring light to the problem of being underpaid.

 

They might be willing to accept being underpaid while all the time trying to change that so that your child may learn to read and write and handle math problems.

 

Thank God for people like that who don't hold $$$ as the motivation to do what they do in life.

 

But at the same time, that should not mean that they are to then sit quietly and accept their lot in life, does it?

 

Let me ask you a capitalists question Aces: If you have the choice to pay big bucks for a high quality product or 1/2 price for a lower quality product, which are you going to buy? Be careful on what you pay for as a society for education, you just might be getting the quality of product that you have paid for.

[Mr.Fundamental]

Amen!

[AcesFull]

If the tax payers do not wish to pay, all I can do is still hit up my Union, and have them lobby for me. By the way did you know it is actually not lawful for teachers to strike.

No, that is not all you can do. You are free to switch professions if conditions within your current profession grow intolerable. That is what I did a few years ago. I trained myself for a different career and when the opportunity presented itself, I made the leap.

 

If I get bored with my current profession, then I will learn to do something else. Never have there been so many opportunities for a person not afraid of change who is willing to learn new skills. Our aging population will open up even more opportunities for career hopping.

 

One thing that I fault our current education system with (aside from runaway tuition costs) is the failure to instill in students the belief that learning must be a lifelong pursuit. Our grandfathers might have been able to confident confidently choose a trade or profession and then work their entire life without changing professions or employers but our children will not have that type of security.

 

The rule of the future will be to learn to adapt or watch yourself become obsolete. It is a future that I relish but one that too many people fear. Schools should be doing a better job teaching students to learn on their own.

[Andrew_Corbin]

I hope to start teaching within the next year ... at the latest, 09/10 school year. This discussion is depressing me. LOL

[Mr.Fundamental]

No, that is not all you can do. You are free to switch professions if conditions within your current profession grow intolerable. That is what I did a few years ago. I trained myself for a different career and when the opportunity presented itself, I made the leap.

 

If I get bored with my current profession, then I will learn to do something else. Never have there been so many opportunities for a person not afraid of change who is willing to learn new skills. Our aging population will open up even more opportunities for career hopping.

 

One thing that I fault our current education system with (aside from runaway tuition costs) is the failure to instill in students the belief that learning must be a lifelong pursuit. Our grandfathers might have been able to confident confidently choose a trade or profession and then work their entire life without changing professions or employers but our children will not have that type of security.

 

The rule of the future will be to learn to adapt or watch yourself become obsolete. It is a future that I relish but one that too many people fear. Schools should be doing a better job teaching students to learn on their own.

 

If I ran from a hard situation, then I could not look myself in the mirror, again you are right in your primise, if money is what you seek, change as many times as it takes...

[Andrew_Corbin]

I know a teacher from Fort Wayne, IN and he makes around $72,000 a year. He has been teaching for 15 years; however, I am sure KY teachers are paid less. I would love to teach for a private school; however, health benefits and retirement will probably play a huge role in my decision to teach in a public school--if I do.