Vaught Strikes Again

[Birdsfan]

Fine but is it true? A few verifiable facts would be helpful but, alas, will not be forthcoming.

The main difference between you and me in this discussion is that my info is based on REAL facts. You have nothing but biased statements based on old-fashioned thinking.

[Birdsfan]

Harry Anderson

 

Orlando Bloom

 

Harry Belafonte

 

Tom Cruise

 

Dave Foley

 

Danny Glover

 

Tracey Gold

 

Whoopi Goldberg

 

Jay Leno

 

Keanu Reeves

 

Edward James Olmos

 

Oliver Reed

 

Billy Bob Thornton

 

Tom Smothers

 

Robin Williams

 

Henry Winkler

 

Loretta Young

 

Ansel Adams, Photographer

 

David Bailey, Photographer

 

Leonardo da Vinci

 

Tommy Hilfiger, Clothing Designer

 

Pablo Picasso

 

Auguste Rodin

 

Robert Toth

 

Jørn Utzon (architect, designed Sydney Opera house)

 

Andy Warhol

 

Muhammad Ali

 

Duncan Goodhew, Olympic Swimmer

 

Bruce Jenner

 

Magic Johnson

 

Greg Louganis

 

Bob May, professional golfer

 

Diamond Dallas Page, World Wrestling Champion

 

Steve Redgrave, Olympic Gold Medalist (rowing)

 

Nolan Ryan

 

Jackie Stewart, race car driver

 

Richard Branson, Founder of Virgin Enterprises

 

John T Chambers, CEO of Cisco Systems

 

Henry Ford

 

William Hewlett, Co-Founder, Hewlett-Packard

 

Craig McCaw, Telecommunications Visionary

 

O.D. McKee, founder of McKee Foods.

 

David Neeleman, CEO of jetBlue Airways.

 

Paul J. Orfalea, founder of Kinko's.

 

Charles Schwab , Investor.

 

Ted Turner, President, Turner Broadcasting Systems

 

F.W. Woolworth

 

Robert Benton, filmmaker

 

Nicole Betancourt , Emmy-winning filmmaker

 

Walt Disney

 

Søren Kragh Jacobsen (Danish film director)

 

Ann Bancroft, Arctic Explorer

 

Alexander Graham Bell

 

John Britten, Inventor

 

Thomas Edison

 

Albert Einstein

 

Michael Faraday

 

Dr. James Lovelock

 

Willem Hollenbach, astronomical photographer and inventor

 

John R. Horner, Paleontologist

 

Archer Martin, Chemist (1952 Nobel Laureate)

 

Pierre Curie, Physicist (1903 Nobel Prize)

 

John Robert Skoyles, Brain Researcher

 

Werner Von Braun

 

David Boies, Attorney

 

Erin Brockovich, Investigator

 

Jeffrey H. Gallet, Judge

 

Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson

 

George Patton

 

Cher

 

Brad Little

 

John Lennon

 

Nigel Kennedy, Violinist

 

Bob Weir, Grateful Dead Guitarist

 

Harvey Cushing, Surgeon

 

Fred Epstein, Neurosurgeon

 

Winston Churchill

 

King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden

 

Michael Heseltine

 

Andrew Jackson, U.S. president

 

Thomas Jefferson, U.S. president

 

John F. Kennedy

Gavin Newsom, Mayor of San Francisco

 

Nelson Rockefeller

 

Paul Wellstone, U.S. Senator

 

Woodrow Wilson, U.S. president

 

George Washington, U.S. president

 

Hans Christian Andersen

 

Jeanne Betancourt, (Author of "My Name is Brain Brian")

 

Steven Cannell, television writer & novelist

 

Larry Chambers

 

Andrew Dornenburg, award-winning author and chef

 

John Corrigan, novelist

 

Agatha Christie

 

Fannie Flagg (Author of "Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe")

 

F. Scott Fitzgerald

 

Gustave Flaubert.

 

Terry Goodkind fantasy writer, author of The Sword of Truth series

 

Patricia Polacco, Children's Author and Illustrator

 

Eileen Simpson (Author of "Reversals")

 

Elizabeth Daniels Squire (author of mystery novels)

 

Bernie Taylor, author of Biological Time

 

Victor Villaseñor

 

W.B. Yeats

 

This is just a few folks with learning disabilities. It certainly is a shame the system was dumbed-down for them. They did nothing but got in the way of more deserving "normal" people. What a crime!

[scooterbob]

Well now, Birdfan, how about posting some of those "real" facts? I will submit one fact for you. The class offerings of many colleges today are inundated with remedial classes in English and mathematics. It is now quite common for students to take two or three remedial classes before they can take College Algebra or English Composition. This practice is a recent development that increases each year. Now, that is fact. What documented facts can you offer?

 

Your list of names is nice. I would imagine that most, if not all, succeeded through hard work and, possibly, determined parents rather than through social promotion and fifth quarters. In the present world, I would submit that my example is far more significant in regard to what is happening than is your list.

[Birdsfan]

Well now, Birdfan, how about posting some of those "real" facts? I will submit one fact for you. The class offerings of many colleges today are inundated with remedial classes in English and mathematics. It is now quite common for students to take two or three remedial classes before they can take College Algebra or English Composition. This practice is a recent development that increases each year. Now, that is fact. What documented facts can you offer?

I just gave you all the facts you need. I'll let all those folks listed speak silently for themselves. Nothing more need be said.

 

Besides, we're not talking about remedial students. We're talking about learning disabilities. Once you understand the distinction, we will have made some progress.

[Trinity alum]

Well now, Birdfan, how about posting some of those "real" facts? I will submit one fact for you. The class offerings of many colleges today are inundated with remedial classes in English and mathematics. It is now quite common for students to take two or three remedial classes before they can take College Algebra or English Composition. This practice is a recent development that increases each year. Now, that is fact. What documented facts can you offer?

 

Your list of names is nice. I would imagine that most, if not all, succeeded through hard work and, possibly determined parents rather than through social promotion and fifth quarters. In the present world, I would submit that my example is far more significant in regard to what is happening than is your list.

The fact that colleges have to offer remedial classes is the BEST argument for providing programs for kids with learning differences. If those kids had received early intervention that helped them learn by the methods that work for them, they wouldn't need those remedial classes. Thanks Birdsfan for the list. It is eloquent testimony that there are many people with very high intelligence that are sometimes labled as slow because they learn in a different way.

[scooterbob]

In college you will find that many of those in remedial classes have learning disabilities and that most of those with learning disabilities take remedial classes. The few who don't are given other advantages. My point is that, in the real world, you cannot depend on receiving other advantages. However, I will agree that nothing more need be said. We are both wasting our time.

[SilverShadow]

The main difference between you and me in this discussion is that my info is based on REAL facts. You have nothing but biased statements based on old-fashioned thinking.

 

Yet you show an incredible amount of patience. Very good of you and excellent posts and commentary. Some will never learn vs. holding on to the comfort of ignorance.

[SilverShadow]

The reality is that we cannot add a fifth quarter to a game merely to allow catch up time. In the real world, that cannot be done. It may sound unkind but it is just truth.

 

By the way, I didn't call any one "dumb". I said that the education process has been "dumbed down". Possible I should have said it has been "watered down". Does that sound better? My choice of words should not be the central point. The practice is the central point and the result is a less able workforce.

 

We have the highest educated population in the WORLD and will continue to have. Because of this and PUBLIC education, we have the highest standard of living, yet we as a society focus on our shortcomings to do better. What frame or facts as you say makes your statement valid?

[scooterbob]

We have the highest educated population in the WORLD and will continue to have. Because of this and PUBLIC education, we have the highest standard of living, yet we as a society focus on our shortcomings to do better. What frame or facts as you say makes your statement valid?

 

 

Well, I see that I have caught the attention of the publics's top cheerleader (and apologist), SS. It is refreshing to read that the publics are doing such a good job. It is a change from what is indicated by many independent studies and audits and from the average citizen's view of public education. One would almost be persuaded that SS is a public educator. Preach on, Silver Shadow.:ylsuper:

[Trinity alum]

Well, I see that I have caught the attention of the publics's top cheerleader (and apologist), SS. It is refreshing to read that the publics are doing such a good job. It is a change from what is indicated by many independent studies and audits and from the average citizen's view of public education. One would almost be persuaded that SS is a public educator. Preach on, Silver Shadow.:ylsuper:

I am a strong backer of private education, but the charges you make about special programs for kids with special needs are just wrong. If there is a valid charge it is that the schools, public and private, don't do enough. It isn't about watering down the courses or a "fifth quarter", it is that not all kids learn in the same way and that because of that some kids need special teaching methods to learn the things they need to know. The earlier that education starts the better.

[Birdsfan]

Yet you show an incredible amount of patience. Very good of you and excellent posts and commentary. Some will never learn vs. holding on to the comfort of ignorance.

Thanks SS. I don't often venture into these parts for fear of a lack of rhetorical chops. But this issue is one of those that elicits strong feelings. And I guess that's where the best arguments are born.

[SilverShadow]

Well, I see that I have caught the attention of the publics's top cheerleader (and apologist), SS. It is refreshing to read that the publics are doing such a good job. It is a change from what is indicated by many independent studies and audits and from the average citizen's view of public education. One would almost be persuaded that SS is a public educator. Preach on, Silver Shadow.:ylsuper:

 

 

Your sad anger overtakes your points. By the way, where are your facts?

 

Birdsfan throws up a list and frankly, knocks your comments out of the park. So how do you retort, simply with the same old same old. If your point is to suggest the kids today are not as smart as forty years ago, what is your basis of fact? If your point is want better tests, let us create a class society, go move to some fairly discriminatory country.

 

How strange, I wait to see the mass exodus of US citizens leaving our borders to go to all these smart and better education countries. Opps, wait, or is all the world trying to come here? Hmmm, must be something wrong with that.

 

By the way, a fair portion of Harvard's staff are public school graduates. Harvard must have come down a major notch or two. Must not be the best in the world. Opps, that is not the case.

 

Just what is your point and where are the kids failing? Perhaps it escaped you but the most productive time and people in this country was called education stupid by people with similar arguments you have twenty years ago, which is today.

 

You call me an apologist, why? I have never said sorry about education. They do an outstanding job. As for being an educator, thanks for the compliment but you are not even close. I will save the subjective observations to your occupation based on your posts. :lol:

[scooterbob]

Well, SS, I must admit my mistake. I sure thought by all of your cheerleading of public education that you were somehow a part of the system. On the other hand, it may surprise you to know that I have over thirty years experience in education- most of it in public education- as, among other positions, teacher, coach, administrator, and school board member. I am still in education. Most important of all, I am a parent. My experience in education extends from middle school to college. I have had occasion to see it all. I have seen the waste of both money and human resources. I have seen the social promotion. I have seen the "watering down" of the curriculum. I have seen the loss of discipline. I have seen the interference from Frankfort by people who have never taught a day nor had to control a classroom. I have seen the enormous increase in remedial classes in colleges caused much by that "watering down". I have seen teachers who were afraid to take control because of fear that they would be sued and that their superiors would leave them out to dry in the process. I have seen teachers who feared for their own safety and the safety of their families. I have seen the decline of the teaching of the basics- particularly grammar. I have heard potential employers complain about the "work product" coming from high schools and colleges. I have seen the enormous amounts spent on "troubled children" and the lack thereof for those who cause no problems. Yes, SS, I have seen all of this and much more. But, then, what do I know?

[ladiesbballcoach]

Well, SS, I must admit my mistake. I sure thought by all of your cheerleading of public education that you were somehow a part of the system. On the other hand, it may surprise you to know that I have over thirty years experience in education- most of it in public education- as, among other positions, teacher, coach, administrator, and school board member. I am still in education. Most important of all, I am a parent. My experience in education extends from middle school to college. I have had occasion to see it all. I have seen the waste of both money and human resources. I have seen the social promotion. I have seen the "watering down" of the curriculum. I have seen the loss of discipline. I have seen the interference from Frankfort by people who have never taught a day nor had to control a classroom. I have seen the enormous increase in remedial classes in colleges caused much by that "watering down". I have seen teachers who were afraid to take control because of fear that they would be sued and that their superiors would leave them out to dry in the process. I have seen teachers who feared for their own safety and the safety of their families. I have seen the decline of the teaching of the basics- particularly grammar. I have heard potential employers complain about the "work product" coming from high schools and colleges. I have seen the enormous amounts spent on "troubled children" and the lack thereof for those who cause no problems. Yes, SS, I have seen all of this and much more. But, then, what do I know?

I rarely agree with Scooter on most issues but have to admit that in what he has mentioned above, does happen.

 

But here comes the BUT, it is not the main characteristic of the public schools. While the failures seem to get the most ink, they are not the norm. While we do have problems with some kids making it, for the most part, many, many kids have made it through and living a comfortable life.

 

The comparisons and failures that scooter lists as far as tests is, I submit, mostly a political fabrication to give the politicians something to champion as their cause. How government is failing them as citizens/voters and vote for candidate "fill-in-the-blank" and I will change that.

 

A lot of the tests are over material that is irrelevent to about 99% of our lives. How much does the quadratic formula affect each of your DAILY LIVES? And yet, our scores against the Japanese scores will be lower because our kids cannot recite that formula? I don't really care if my daughter has that memorized when she graduates or not. I am sure that she can live a productive and good life not being able to memorize the formula for finding the circumference of a circle. I know I have.

 

I submit that for the race to know this "advanced" learning, we have lost the ability to be good citizens. Debt is out of control in this country and people do not know good fiscal responsibility. They can tell you about figuring the area of a triangle but can't balance a checkbook or understand the concept of credit cards. Because that is not politically "pretty" to sell to the voters.

 

Although we see debt controlling lives, ruining marriages and being an albatross on this country.

 

The state of KY has now decided that ACT scores will go into figuring how the scores are doing. So we have that test to administer (interesting to see who is going to have to pay for all of these required ACT tests to administer to the free/reduced crowd), the national "No Child Left Behind" tests, the CATS testing. All we do anymore is test, test, test, or prepare for some sort of test so that some politician can get information.

 

While the child's life and helping them make it through life is left in the wake.

[scooterbob]

Birdsfan's list of names from a dyslexia website is impressive. However, since the term, "dyslexia", was not introduced until the late 1880s and since real research and progress didn't surface until the 1970s, I have to assume that many of these people were never diagnosed with dyslexia during their lifetimes. Very few from the list benefitted from any public education programs such as we see funded today.

 

Now that is not to suggest that the programs are not worthy. However, it is to state that most of these people succeeded (many are entertainers so I don't know if they should count or not since their "success" may be debated as to its importance) for reasons other than public education programs. As I said earlier, they succeeded because of some combination of their own hard work, dedicated parents, other dedicated individuals, and/or, to be honest, good fortune and opportunity (ie: being the right place at the right time).

 

All in all, Birdfan's list, though nice to see, really adds little to the defense of the public education system. I would also question how we have "evolved" from questioning the excess expenditure of public funds on troublemakers and golf shirts to a referendum on dyslexia. No one is questioning the need for this work. However, Birdsfan's list is not evidence of the success of any present day public education programs.