Vaught Strikes Again

[scooterbob]

It sounds like you got the "traditional" treatment, rockmom. At Holy Family, the nuns has us copy parts of the dictionary for a while. Then. we got to come in on Saturday to sand and refinish student desks (they were made of good, solid oak). Wonderful lessons of life and sacrifice were learned from those blessed women.

[ladiesbballcoach]

It appears that we are in agreement in regard to the deemphasis on grammar. However, I can guarantee you that employers- particularly in areas where communication is important- are interested in grammar. The "education experts" are wrong on this issue. As a college professor, I inform my students on the first day of class that they better submit writings that are grammatically correct or their grades will suffer severely. I think this is important because I am preparing these students to enter a workplace where you are often judged by your ability to write and speak correctly.

 

I would disagree with you as to the value of being able to diagram a sentence properly. I think it still has an important place in a good education. Unfortunately, most of the students I see have never been exposed to the process. Of course, they also don't know an adverb from an adjective so I guess I expect too much.

 

We are still not on the same page on teaching the test. My concern deals with the practice of preparing students to score as high as possible on state generated examinations for the obvious purpose of making the school look good. That, to me, has little to do with educating the students and a lot to do with CYA.

On the last part, to an extent I agree. But I also understand. If a principal knows that he will LOSE HIS/HER JOB for poor tests scores no matter how good his students diagram sentences( ), what do you expect them to do but the anagram you used? That is the system that the administrators have to administer in. They did not create it and I think given a choice they would change that system.

 

But the education process is not controlled by people that know things about education. They are Monday morning quarterbacks in their expert ability of knowing education.

 

I will also stick to my point that what is tested is what they should know. So when you are practice testing, you are reinforcing those things that they should know. The practice tests in math cover math standards that they are expected to know not trivia of the 1998 UK men's basketball championship team and why Tubby Smith is the greatest UK men's coach ever. ( Couldn't resist throwing that in for some levity.)

[scooterbob]

On the last part, to an extent I agree. But I also understand. If a principal knows that he will LOSE HIS/HER JOB for poor tests scores no matter how good his students diagram sentences( ), what do you expect them to do but the anagram you used? That is the system that the administrators have to administer in. They did not create it and I think given a choice they would change that system.

 

But the education process is not controlled by people that know things about education. They are Monday morning quarterbacks in their expert ability of knowing education.

 

I will also stick to my point that what is tested is what they should know. So when you are practice testing, you are reinforcing those things that they should know. The practice tests in math cover math standards that they are expected to know not trivia of the 1998 UK men's basketball championship team and why Tubby Smith is the greatest UK men's coach ever. ( Couldn't resist throwing that in for some levity.)

 

I certainly agree with you that school administrators are in a difficult position. Your comments illustrate the travesty of the process because, the applicable tests have little to do with student learning and much to do with schools and their staffs looking good- at least "proficient". The motivation is CYA and not learning.

 

The decisions are made by noneducators many of whom sit in nice offices in Frankfort. They have never conducted a class nor controlled a classroom. The results are not good for the students.

 

I know many public school administrators. I know many public school teachers. I know what they face each day. I know where the emphasis is placed in colleges of education these days. I think we can conclude that it isn't good. If my car doesn't work well, I fix it or get it fixed. Unfortunately, because of the layers of bureaucracy, the education system cannot be easily tuned up. The end result is that many of our children suffer and are ill

prepared. Of course, the good students perform often in spite of the system rather than because of the system.

 

I would wish all of you public school teachers and administrators good luck but, then, good luck won't help any.

[ladiesbballcoach]

I certainly agree with you that school administrators are in a difficult position. Your comments illustrate the travesty of the process because, the applicable test have little to do with student learning and much to do with schools and their staffs looking good- at least "proficient". The motivation is CYA and not learning.

 

The decisions are made by noneducators many of whom sit in nice offices in Frankfort. They have never conducted a class nor controlled a classroom. The results are not good for the students.

 

I know many public school administrators. I know many public school teachers. I know what they face each day. I know where the emphasis is placed in colleges of education these days. I think we can conclude that it isn't good. If my car doesn't work well, I fix it or get it fixed. Unfortunately, because of the layers of bureaucracy, the education system cannot be easily tuned up. The end result is that many of our children suffer and are ill

prepared. Of course, the good students perform often in spite of the system rather than because of the system.

 

I would wish all of you public school teachers and administrators good luck but, then, good luck won't help any.

I do feel the need to point out that colleges of education are ONLY one of THREE targets of schools. Yes, we have to prepare students for colleges of education but also for life (financial decisions like handling a checking account, preparing a resume and handling a job interview, basics of using a computer, etc) and for the workplace (include military in there with all of the jobs that are out there in which are students will go straight into the work world.)

 

While colleges probably get frustrated with secondary schools, they also have to realize that we don't exist to JUST provide them with students but that is just one part of our job. They get to focus on one particular group of our students while we have to have programs aimed at ALL of the students while also addressing the needs of the group that you mention.

 

Let me also address the increased number of remedial classes that you alluded to. Because of the push, push, push that EVERYONE needs to go to college, the freshmen classes are overloaded with students that are not prepared and don't want to be in college but are there because they mistakenly feel they have to go to a traditional "college."

 

They may be better suited to be in a trade or vocational or technical school rather than the 4-year college campus type of school.

 

While, yes, not being prepared is part of the issue of remedical classes, I would also say that simply having students that should not be in college is also the reason for more remedial classes.

 

Sbob, has the # of students in college who drop out after their first or second year increased over the past 10-15 years? If so, I think that is an indication that some students are there because college is mistakenly be pushed to students that should not be there. 20-30 years ago, not everyone was going on to college as I believe they do today.

 

Don't mistake what I am saying. For 90% of the careers out there education PAST HS is a must. But it might very well not be a 4-year college program. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, all have nice careers and a 4-year college program is not necessary. Not sure that an increasing # of remedial classes is a good indication that HS's are not doing their job when you consider this argument.

[Birdsfan]

Was that a tool to utilize vocabulary words?

No, it was basically for everything. Any kind of grammar lesson was drilled in with the same treatment. I can still see it now: 25 sentences, ten times each. :creepy:

 

The worst offender -- at least the one still burned into my memory -- was my fifth grade teacher, Ms. Gibson. If any of you had her (like 83Bird), you'll know what I'm talking about.

[ladiesbballcoach]

No, it was basically for everything. Any kind of grammar lesson was drilled in with the same treatment. I can still see it now: 25 sentences, ten times each. :creepy:

 

The worst offender -- at least the one still burned into my memory -- was my fifth grade teacher, Ms. Gibson. If any of you had her (like 83Bird), you'll know what I'm talking about.

Hey, that's my grandma.:irked:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k:D

[Birdsfan]

Hey, that's my grandma.:irked:

Believe it or not, she was my dad's 5th grade teacher too!

[scooterbob]

By "colleges of education" I didn't mean colleges in general. I meant, for instance. the College of Education at Morehead, or the College of Education at U of L, and so on. Those who are teaching the future teachers and the emphasis those people use is what concerns me. For example, those who will become English teachers (my particular concern) are not learning enough grammar to be able to teach grammar. Thus, when these teachers enter the classroom, they avoid grammar or treat it as an afterthought because they are not competently prepared to teach it. And, of course, it is much easier to have students read a story and discuss it in class or to have a generic writing assignment in which sentence structure, spelling, and such matters are not considered important. This approach is wrong and the work product coming from this environment is ill prepared.

[ladiesbballcoach]

By "colleges of education" I didn't mean colleges in general. I meant, for instance. the College of Education at Morehead, or the College of Education at U of L, and so on. Those who are teaching the future teachers and the emphasis those people use is what concerns me. For example, those who will become English teachers (my particular concern) are not learning enough grammar to be able to teach grammar. Thus, when these teachers enter the classroom, they avoid grammar or treat it as an afterthought because they are not competently prepared to teach it. And, of course, it is much easier to have students read a story and discuss it in class or to have a generic writing assignment in which sentence structure, spelling, and such matters are not considered important. This approach is wrong and the work product coming from this environment is ill prepared.

Well can't argue with any of this.:thumb:

 

The other part of this writing process that has bothered me is the emphasis on flowery writing when in the business world I don't have time or want to know that the "machine rumbles like the German tanks rolling into Warsaw."

 

The emphasis has changed a little but honestly, English teachers are not good at teaching technical writing and the technical writing pieces that I would do in my business classes would not score to the distinguished level, even though, they may be distinguished technical writing pieces.

[Birdsfan]

Well can't argue with any of this.:thumb:

 

The other part of this writing process that has bothered me is the emphasis on flowery writing when in the business world I don't have time or want to know that the "machine rumbles like the German tanks rolling into Warsaw."

 

The emphasis has changed a little but honestly, English teachers are not good at teaching technical writing and the technical writing pieces that I would do in my business classes would not score to the distinguished level, even though, they may be distinguished technical writing pieces.

It really is apples and oranges. Creative writing, or "literary" writing has no place in the simple straightforward world of business and technology. Then again, writing for marketing and sales purposes is somewhere in the middle. But in any kind of writing, simpler is always better. The first sign of an amateur is the overuse of adjectives and adverbs.