Mollie Tibbits found dead

[Jumper_Dad]

Anyone who does that has to be mental.

 

Im sure his lawyer will come up with a good excuse or reason.

 

I disagree, some people are just evil.

[75center]

Unfortunately, most people probably felt that this was the way it was going to turn out.

[Beechwoodfan]

What a tragically sad turn of events.

 

Like the poster above, I too, am a huge fan of true crime books, podcasts, movies, etc. While we all, and I think rightfully so, focus on this man's illegal alien status, I think it's yet ANOTHER (as you hear about often in cases like this) another case of someone with crippling mental illness that has gone untreated. No one - legal or illegal - does something like this if they're sane/in their right mind.

 

Pay attention to your kid's, your loved ones, your co-workers, etc and their overall mental well being. If there are signs...do something. Otherwise, the slippery slope could lead to tragedy.

 

:(

 

Plenty of horrible crimes committed by people who are not mentally ill. Many are (and he may be) but there are people in this world that have no conscious and are just plain evil. People like to blame mental illness every time something like this happens, but the vast majority of mentally ill people are as harmless as your average “normal” person.

 

As far as paying attention and doing something if you suspect someone may be dangerous...what can anyone do? Very little. You can talk to them or their relatives, and try to be careful around them, but that’s about it. It is not illegal to be odd, strange, or scarey, and it is also not enough evidence to force mental health on someone. There are many parents trying to help get their mentally ill kids to comply with therapy, but if the kid doesn’t want to do it, it s SO hard...pretty much impossible. You or I may strongly fear that your relative or co worker MIGHT be dangerous, but sadly, until they actually DO something, nothing can be forced on them.

 

Not trying to poo poo your thoughts, because I know they are well meant, but reality is so much more complicated, frustrating, and scarey.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Beechwoodfan

[TheDeuce]

I don’t think that the world is more evil today than at any other time. I am a fan of the “True Crime” genre and I can give you lists of cases from the past. Two things to consider. As the world population has grown, so have opportunities to act on evil impulses. Secondly, in the world of today’s mega-media, social and otherwise, we hear about it more.

 

Agree completely.

[BrosefStalin]

Plenty of horrible crimes committed by people who are not mentally ill. Many are (and he may be) but there are people in this world that have no conscious and are just plain evil. People like to blame mental illness every time something like this happens, but the vast majority of mentally ill people are as harmless as your average “normal” person.

 

As far as paying attention and doing something if you suspect someone may be dangerous...what can anyone do? Very little. You can talk to them or their relatives, and try to be careful around them, but that’s about it. It is not illegal to be odd, strange, or scarey, and it is also not enough evidence to force mental health on someone. There are many parents trying to help get their mentally ill kids to comply with therapy, but if the kid doesn’t want to do it, it s SO hard...pretty much impossible. You or I may strongly fear that your relative or co worker MIGHT be dangerous, but sadly, until they actually DO something, nothing can be forced on them.

 

Not trying to poo poo your thoughts, because I know they are well meant, but reality is so much more complicated, frustrating, and scarey.

 

Respectfully, especially considering your Tiger fandom, I COMPLETELY disagree with your statement. Shocking that you - or anyone else - would have such an attitude, especially if you’re a parent.

 

Why would you assume that Rivera isn’t mentally ill? Odd that you’d criticize me for claiming he is (and the evidence points to that CLEARLY) and then you claim he’s not which invalidates what I posted?

 

And such a meh...screw it...nothing I can do (when someone shows signs of issues)...is disturbing. But then again, I guess they’re just born that way. Right?

[Beechwoodfan]

Respectfully, especially considering your Tiger fandom, I COMPLETELY disagree with your statement. Shocking that you - or anyone else - would have such an attitude, especially if you’re a parent.

 

Why would you assume that Rivera isn’t mentally ill? Odd that you’d criticize me for claiming he is (and the evidence points to that CLEARLY) and then you claim he’s not which invalidates what I posted?

 

And such a meh...screw it...nothing I can do (when someone shows signs of issues)...is disturbing. But then again, I guess they’re just born that way. Right?

 

I am not assuming he isn’t mentally ill. As I said in my post, he might be, but no one should assume that he is. 30 years as a parent and 20 years experience working with severely mentally ill people gives me my perspective. Paranoid people can be quite dangerous, but so can seemingly normal people. Some are born that way and some are raised that way. It doesn’t make them mentally ill nexessarily. It makes them criminals.

 

I don’t have a “meh, screw it” attitude. Far from it. I am a big advocate for treatment for the mentally ill. I just know very well, the reality.

 

I posted a great article from a forensic psychiatrist awhile back about this same thing. Unfortunately... I have to edit this.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Beechwoodfan

[oldgrappler]

Plenty of horrible crimes committed by people who are not mentally ill. Many are (and he may be) but there are people in this world that have no conscious and are just plain evil. People like to blame mental illness every time something like this happens, but the vast majority of mentally ill people are as harmless as your average “normal” person.

 

As far as paying attention and doing something if you suspect someone may be dangerous...what can anyone do? Very little. You can talk to them or their relatives, and try to be careful around them, but that’s about it. It is not illegal to be odd, strange, or scarey, and it is also not enough evidence to force mental health on someone. There are many parents trying to help get their mentally ill kids to comply with therapy, but if the kid doesn’t want to do it, it s SO hard...pretty much impossible. You or I may strongly fear that your relative or co worker MIGHT be dangerous, but sadly, until they actually DO something, nothing can be forced on them.

 

Not trying to poo poo your thoughts, because I know they are well meant, but reality is so much more complicated, frustrating, and scarey.

 

I think this post gets at the difficulty and frustration faced by many families who have family members that are mentally ill. A Paranoid Schizophrenic, for instance, is quite hard to deal with when an adult and living on his own. Our laws make it very difficult to do something and rightfully so because we don't want the government to have the power to lock people up without their consent.

 

But that means you have to wait until there is a just cause to get the person evaluated without their consent. The threshold for this is when you reasonably believe they may be a threat to themselves or others.

 

A Paranoid Schizophrenic may say a lot of strange things about what they see and hear and will voice concerns that "somebody" is doing something nefarious to their property or person. When you suggest they see a doctor, they may reply that that doctor is out to get them. Suggest another doctor or mental health facility and they are suspicious of those people too. Then they suspect you because you are suggesting they may have a problem. You must be one of them. How do you help someone who is suspicious of everyone including you and trusts no one?

 

Let me describe one way that may get them to a place where they get help. The ill person does something in public that draws attention to themselves but isn't to the level where they or others are in danger. Then they get reported. So that puts them on the radar of law enforcement. Then neighbors call and report something else, some other strange behavior, the individual screaming angry rants about no one in particular. That gets a second look from law enforcement. Another incident occurs, where threatening signs are posted on the person's property warning imaginary trespassers to stay away. Law enforcement comes a third time and talks to the ill person. This person is too ill to bathe often and to eat right. Can't keep a job and is too ill to apply for unemployment, or food stamps, and won't be evaluated to get disability. The LEO notices the poor condition of the person and writes a ticket for a 72 hour hold and takes the person to the hospital. The mentally ill person is not in a psychotic moment and so is compliant with the LEO. The hospital psychiatric workers are able to quickly figure out this guy is paranoid and schizophrenic. He refuses to be treated by them, won't take meds, etc. They determine he is too far gone to take care of himself and is a threat to himself or others. He gets committed to a mental institution and refuses to be treated, refuses all meds. They may be trying to kill him or put him in a state where they can manipulate him and take his house or something (he thinks). So they hold him indefinitely. They take him to court and say he is too ill to make decisions for himself. The court agrees and orders forced medication. Eventually, he hates losing his liberty so much so that he will do nearly anything they ask to get out of the mental hospital, including taking his meds.

 

The treatment begins to work and he starts to have more normal thinking patterns. The hallucinations subside and disappear. He begins to miss all the things that he liked about his life when he was more normal. He begins to admit he is ill. So they let him make a visit to his family. Complete some more paperwork and he is released to g o home with follow up visits and adjustment of meds, etc. A social worker is assigned to his case and arranges for disability, help with heating, food stamps until the disability kicks in, a home visit or three, pretty soon the mentally ill person is back more like himself, though he may not be able to work again and the meds make him sluggish with very little ambition. But at least he can function, can interact with family, and can get by without being in constant fear and living from one psychotic moment to the next. The family has to adjust to a person with a chronic, incurable, mental disease whose symptoms are tolerable with medication.

 

Yes, this is "complicated, frustrating, and scarey [sic]" for the mentally ill person, the family who has been trying to get him help for years, and people on the fringes of his life who know this person is bonkers but do not know what to do, except avoid him.

 

I'm not sure there is a "fix" for this. We rightly value personal freedom. So the proverbial phrase applies, "free to swing your fist until it touches the end of my nose." If you've ever reported someone as a danger to himself or others just to have that person released after 72 hrs. with no treatment plan, you know how frustrating that is and how much that action just eroded any trust in you the person had.

 

Is it futile? No! The family must not disengage. They must keep trying to help and hope that life circumstances will direct the person towards treatment. And they must have the courage to call for help (911) if they do believe the person is a harm to himself or others and be willing to deal with the relational consequences of being the one to report their family member.

[oldgrappler]

I don’t think that the world is more evil today than at any other time. I am a fan of the “True Crime” genre and I can give you lists of cases from the past. Two things to consider. As the world population has grown, so have opportunities to act on evil impulses. Secondly, in the world of today’s mega-media, social and otherwise, we hear about it more.

 

Yep, Cain and Abel.

[archangel]

I think this post gets at the difficulty and frustration faced by many families who have family members that are mentally ill. A Paranoid Schizophrenic, for instance, is quite hard to deal with when an adult and living on his own. Our laws make it very difficult to do something and rightfully so because we don't want the government to have the power to lock people up without their consent.

 

But that means you have to wait until there is a just cause to get the person evaluated without their consent. The threshold for this is when you reasonably believe they may be a threat to themselves or others.

 

A Paranoid Schizophrenic may say a lot of strange things about what they see and hear and will voice concerns that "somebody" is doing something nefarious to their property or person. When you suggest they see a doctor, they may reply that that doctor is out to get them. Suggest another doctor or mental health facility and they are suspicious of those people too. Then they suspect you because you are suggesting they may have a problem. You must be one of them. How do you help someone who is suspicious of everyone including you and trusts no one?

 

Let me describe one way that may get them to a place where they get help. The ill person does something in public that draws attention to themselves but isn't to the level where they or others are in danger. Then they get reported. So that puts them on the radar of law enforcement. Then neighbors call and report something else, some other strange behavior, the individual screaming angry rants about no one in particular. That gets a second look from law enforcement. Another incident occurs, where threatening signs are posted on the person's property warning imaginary trespassers to stay away. Law enforcement comes a third time and talks to the ill person. This person is too ill to bathe often and to eat right. Can't keep a job and is too ill to apply for unemployment, or food stamps, and won't be evaluated to get disability. The LEO notices the poor condition of the person and writes a ticket for a 72 hour hold and takes the person to the hospital. The mentally ill person is not in a psychotic moment and so is compliant with the LEO. The hospital psychiatric workers are able to quickly figure out this guy is paranoid and schizophrenic. He refuses to be treated by them, won't take meds, etc. They determine he is too far gone to take care of himself and is a threat to himself or others. He gets committed to a mental institution and refuses to be treated, refuses all meds. They may be trying to kill him or put him in a state where they can manipulate him and take his house or something (he thinks). So they hold him indefinitely. They take him to court and say he is too ill to make decisions for himself. The court agrees and orders forced medication. Eventually, he hates losing his liberty so much so that he will do nearly anything they ask to get out of the mental hospital, including taking his meds.

 

The treatment begins to work and he starts to have more normal thinking patterns. The hallucinations subside and disappear. He begins to miss all the things that he liked about his life when he was more normal. He begins to admit he is ill. So they let him make a visit to his family. Complete some more paperwork and he is released to g o home with follow up visits and adjustment of meds, etc. A social worker is assigned to his case and arranges for disability, help with heating, food stamps until the disability kicks in, a home visit or three, pretty soon the mentally ill person is back more like himself, though he may not be able to work again and the meds make him sluggish with very little ambition. But at least he can function, can interact with family, and can get by without being in constant fear and living from one psychotic moment to the next. The family has to adjust to a person with a chronic, incurable, mental disease whose symptoms are tolerable with medication.

 

Yes, this is "complicated, frustrating, and scarey [sic]" for the mentally ill person, the family who has been trying to get him help for years, and people on the fringes of his life who know this person is bonkers but do not know what to do, except avoid him.

 

I'm not sure there is a "fix" for this. We rightly value personal freedom. So the proverbial phrase applies, "free to swing your fist until it touches the end of my nose." If you've ever reported someone as a danger to himself or others just to have that person released after 72 hrs. with no treatment plan, you know how frustrating that is and how much that action just eroded any trust in you the person had.

 

Is it futile? No! The family must not disengage. They must keep trying to help and hope that life circumstances will direct the person towards treatment. And they must have the courage to call for help (911) if they do believe the person is a harm to himself or others and be willing to deal with the relational consequences of being the one to report their family member.

 

Apparently the Aunt never thought he had any problems.

 

"He was a good person. He was a jokester," the aunt said of Rivera, through a translator. "For us, he was a good and normal person. Not aggressive or violent, no. He was normal just like us.

Attorney for Mollie Tibbetts' suspected killer Cristhian Rivera fights back | Fox News

[Beechwoodfan]

Apparently the Aunt never thought he had any problems.

 

"He was a good person. He was a jokester," the aunt said of Rivera, through a translator. "For us, he was a good and normal person. Not aggressive or violent, no. He was normal just like us.

Attorney for Mollie Tibbetts' suspected killer Cristhian Rivera fights back | Fox News

 

Most mentally ill people have their first break in their teens to early 20’s. These young people learn quickly to cover their symptoms and subtle changes (withdrawing from the family, irritability) can easily be attributed to teenage hormones, or normal teenage behavior, so lots of times family members don’t see things until they get pretty bad. No one wants to believe their loved ones are mentally ill. He is 24,so would fit in the upper end of that time frame.

 

To make things worse, insurance companies do not want to pay for treatment. 72 hours and out is pretty routine. Only the sickest stay more than a week and rarely more than a couple weeks. Sad but true. The only time someone can be held indefinitely is AFTER they do something bad.

[Beechwoodfan]

I don’t know how a parent ever goes on in life after something like this happens. It’s the worst possible thing that could happen to any family.

[jvdfc]

I agree. So sad.

[Pura Vida]

I saw that Mollie’s brother Scott, a High School senior QB, scored 3 touchdowns in his team’s opener on Friday night. He decided to play just Thursday.... it must have been an amazing, emotional night for the family and entire community. (sniff, sniff)

 

Mollie Tibbetts''' Brother Scott Scores Touchdowns After Sister'''s Death | PEOPLE.com

Edited August 25, 2018 by Pura Vida
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