Male vs. Manual/public vs. private question

[90Rock]

I think if they weren't some of the best talent coming out of southern Indiana though it would be viewed differently. And the financial situation maybe as above board as can be but there are alot of students that attend public schools whose parents tell a different story when their kids were courted. Maybe that is all lies. I don't know! But there is a public relations problem in the community that suggest that things are not as the official process suggest it should be, maybe it is bogus, maybe it is boosters doing things that they should not outside the view or range of the schools vision, or maybe it is all bogus. But even if every private and public program in the state is squeaky clean there is a problem if 3/4 th's the schools administrators out there think it is a problem.

 

Three out of four school administrators think there is a problem because over 75% of administrators in the KHSAA are from public schools. Just because there is a majority consensus doesn't make it right. At one point, most people thought the world was flat too. I could also tell you about public school kids I know who went to schools out of their district back in the 80s who were good at sports. Maybe it was somehow above board, maybe it wasn't. It is the job of school administrators to educate themselves about the facts instead of taking drastic measures like Prop 20.

[ram95]

Three out of four school administrators think there is a problem because over 75% of administrators in the KHSAA are from public schools. Just because there is a majority consensus doesn't make it right. At one point, most people thought the world was flat too. I could also tell you about public school kids I know who went to schools out of their district back in the 80s who were good at sports. Maybe it was somehow above board, maybe it wasn't. It is the job of school administrators to educate themselves about the facts instead of taking drastic measures like Prop 20.

We can go round and round if that is the case then because it is he said she said and nothing is going to be solved. The vast majority of the KHSAA is public schools, if they have the wrong idea then why not take steps to prove that things are above board to them instead of haveing them just trust you. If the privates don't offer the publics some assurances and if the dominance continues no matter how much public schools try to improve then there will be a split, they already voted for one, now it is just a matter of time before it becomes a political hot potato. Look I want the games to continue, and I am not calling anyone a cheater, I am just saying if the public schools think that there is a problem, then the privates are going tohave to take some action to prove otherwise or there will be a split. It is not about right or wrong at this point, it is about power, and with 75% of the vote the publics have the power, right or wrong. The privates are going to have to do more in this debate than be defensive, they are going to have to be positively proactive in proving that they are above board and right on this issue to win over the publics. What is not going to work is pointing at Male and Manual and others and saying well they do it too or they did it first. We are beyond that point. There is a problem, whether real or incorrectly percieved, and it is going to have to be positively addressed with dialog not sniping back and forth.

[Trinity alum]

Limit enrollment only to the Archdiocese of Louisville area and only counties that border around Louisville. Ie. Oldham, Shelby, Bullitt, Hardin, Spencer, and Jefferson. If indeed 95% of the teams talent comes from within Jefferson county then this even gives you the surrounding counties for those catholic families and alumni that live in Shelbyville, Mt. Washington, Hillview, Crestwood, Radcliff E-town and Sheperdsville. No Indiana kids. I think that is fair. Also I think that there has to be more dialogue and accountablity placed on the KHSAA to oversee the distribution of finacial aid to athletes, a clearing house of sorts, as long as names aren't published I think it would be good for the schools to report the average income of the parents of student athletes and just how much work study and financial aid is given out to athletes as compared to the average student. As long as no confidencial information given out, it would go a long way to show to the public that things are actually above board. And make limits St. X says that parents have to pay 50% tution, and that is already the case. Ok then put the KHSAA clearing house there in place to monitor that as part of eligiblity, same with grades and such.

 

Financial aid is already determined by an outside agency. There are six such agencies approved by the KHSAA. You are required to use one of the six. As I said before, no out of state kids is, I believe, a mistake but I could live with it as long as it applies to public schools as well as private.

[ram95]

Financial aid is already determined by an outside agency. There are six such agencies approved by the KHSAA. You are required to use one of the six. As I said before, no out of state kids is, I believe, a mistake but I could live with it as long as it applies to public schools as well as private.

Ok then where can I get a copy of the stats that show how many athletes get Financial aid and at what percentage to the rest of the school? And at what rate do athletes from economically disadvantaged areas recieve aid compared to kids that don't play sports from the same background? Those figures should prove the privates point I would think? If there is a KHSAA clearing house then where are those numbers? But even then those companies only tell how much aid a person should get, they have no oversite whatsoever on WHO pays and how much they pay and where the money comes from.

[ram95]

And BTW I think that if the public and private schools want that clearing house to keep things nice and open and above board, I think that the KHSAA should require money from all member schools public and private to pay the expense and not just shove it on the privates. The KHSAA should pay for it.

[90Rock]

Ok then where can I get a copy of the stats that show how many athletes get Financial aid and at what percentage to the rest of the school? And at what rate do athletes from economically disadvantaged areas recieve aid compared to kids that don't play sports from the same background? Those figures should prove the privates point I would think? If there is a KHSAA clearing house then where are those numbers? But even then those companies only tell how much aid a person should get, they have no oversite whatsoever on WHO pays and how much they pay and where the money comes from.

 

About half of all Trinity students get financial aid of some sort and no one gets more than half of the tuition paid for. There are about 1400 boys at Trinity. If you'd like to educate yourself on financial aid, you can go our website, click on admissions and then on finacial aid. There is a link tio the financial aid service we use that might be informative. I don;t think you'll get info on how many kids play sports, as that is irrelevant to financial aid.

[All Tell]

Ok then where can I get a copy of the stats that show how many athletes get Financial aid and at what percentage to the rest of the school? And at what rate do athletes from economically disadvantaged areas recieve aid compared to kids that don't play sports from the same background?

Probably at the same place I can find the admissions scores of all the athletes at Manual in comparison to those students that were not admitted adn where I can find transcripts of all athletes at Male that show they did indeed go to the only middle schools that feed Male.

[ram95]

Probably at the same place I can find the admissions scores of all the athletes at Manual in comparison to those students that were not admitted adn where I can find transcripts of all athletes at Male that show they did indeed go to the only middle schools that feed Male.

Again sniping at Male and Manual is not going to solve the perception problem that is plagueing the privates. Besides Manual has placed football players at Princeton, Brown, Havard, and Northwestern, and every major college in the state. Manual football players are not having a hard time getting into colleges they are qualified to be there or they wouldn't make it through the program. Make up what ever lies you want to divert the question back on to us, but we aren't the ones being threatened right now, the privates are, we are working on ways to stop that! Either be part of the solution or continue to point fingers and make enemies the choice is yours. Besides the graduation rate and continuation on to higher learning of Manual's football players is the envy of the state. They are all qualified or they would not get in.

 

This is the stuff I am talking about, a Trinity person asked me for examples of ideas that would help. I give my opinions, and instead of addressing them you attack.

[ram95]

About half of all Trinity students get financial aid of some sort and no one gets more than half of the tuition paid for. There are about 1400 boys at Trinity. If you'd like to educate yourself on financial aid, you can go our website, click on admissions and then on finacial aid. There is a link tio the financial aid service we use that might be informative. I don;t think you'll get info on how many kids play sports, as that is irrelevant to financial aid.

I understand that it is irrelevant whether or not they are approved of aid, but it is not irrelevent to the discussion of why the publics seem to find the recruiting and tuituion remission linked. Again I am not accusing, I am merely pointing out that it is an accusation and there is a way to prove it false. Why would the private schools not what to do something that would prove the message they have been putting out there? It is just a suggestion.

[All Tell]

I didn't attack I just asked a simple question. You seem to be the one that gets defensive whenever anyone says that St. Manual may be doing anything not above boards.

 

It certainly seems like a schools as virtuous as Manual would have nothing to hide.

 

If as you suggest the KHSAA should fund a clearing house to make sure that everyone that enrolls in and open enrollment type program in order to combat what you call a bad perception then shouldn't Male and Manual do the same. And before you turn it around on me again wouldn't a school as progressive and wholesome as Manual insist that they be scrutinized under a microscope?

 

I know for a fact that when I was on the staff of one of the less privileged public schools we felt like we lost more potential students to other public schools then we did to private schools.

[H]

Probably at the same place I can find the admissions scores of all the athletes at Manual in comparison to those students that were not admitted adn where I can find transcripts of all athletes at Male that show they did indeed go to the only middle schools that feed Male.

 

Go and get yourself copies of the yearbooks from the 3 Traditional middle schools and from Male and compare for yourself (you might want to consult a team roster as well). All of that information is in the public domain.

 

Now, as Ram95 asked, where can one find statistics on the proportion of athletes to non-athletes receiving financial aid (or the average percentage of tuition being covered by financial aid for athletes vs non-athletes)?

[ram95]

I didn't attack I just asked a simple question. You seem to be the one that gets defensive whenever anyone says that St. Manual may be doing anything not above boards.

You don't get it. When other public schools call a school St. Male or St. Manual it is a cut on Catholic schools, it is trying to call us cheaters. You are basically cutting on the image of all Catholics and Catholic schools when you use that terminolgy.

[All Tell]

No I am just suggesting that there is a perception that Male and Manual enjoy the same "advantages" as the private schools and wasn't it someone from Manual that suggested this clearing house thing was to combat the perception that public schools have about the privates.

[ram95]

I didn't attack I just asked a simple question. You seem to be the one that gets defensive whenever anyone says that St. Manual may be doing anything not above boards.

 

It certainly seems like a schools as virtuous as Manual would have nothing to hide.

 

If as you suggest the KHSAA should fund a clearing house to make sure that everyone that enrolls in and open enrollment type program in order to combat what you call a bad perception then shouldn't Male and Manual do the same. And before you turn it around on me again wouldn't a school as progressive and wholesome as Manual insist that they be scrutinized under a microscope?

 

I know for a fact that when I was on the staff of one of the less privileged public schools we felt like we lost more potential students to other public schools then we did to private schools.

Manual doesn't have anything to hide the KHSAA DOES have access to the grades and test scores of our athletes. I am not asking for this to take place!! I am making a suggestion that would help the situation and clear the private schools of wrong doing. I am not the one putting these problems out there they were in the Courier Journal as a issue in the debate. Someone said that the public school people from Manual weren't offering any suggestions, we said we were wary of it because then someone would point at us and start this stuff, and you did just that after I gave the suggestion.

[ram95]

No I am just suggesting that there is a perception that Male and Manual enjoy the same "advantages" as the private schools and wasn't it someone from Manual that suggested this clearing house thing was to combat the perception that public schools have about the privates.

But you are promoting the term that has been for years meant by other public schools to suggest that Male and Manual RECRUIT and cheat ala there perception of the Catholic schools. No matter how you meant it you are promoting an ANTI-CATHOLIC TERM!