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TheMan gives the simple truth about Trinity (and St. X)


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TheMan speaks:


Trinity has many things going for it that make it a strong program. Success tends to breed success. They have a greater feeder program, great coaches, work hard, etc., but Rock fans don't kid yourself into thinking that numbers aren't THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR in contributing to whether a program is successful in 4A.


Out of the top 15 largest schools in 4A this year:


- Both of the finalist were in the 15 largest schools.


- All four of the semi-finalists were in the 15 largest schools.


- 6 of the eight quarter-finalists were in the 15 largest schools.


- 12 of the 15 largest schools in the state made the playoffs.



Out of the smallest 15 schools in 4A this year:


- None made the finals.


- None made the semi-finals


- None made the quarter-finals


- 8 of the 15 smallest schools made the playoffs.



The best team of the smallest 15 schools in 4A was Dixie Heights. Dixie Heights was eliminated by Trinity in the second round by two touchdowns. Dixie Heights has less than half the boys to pull from as Trinity. Dixie Heights started many players both ways. It is TheMan's opinion that the coach of Dixie Heights would love to see what his team could do if his school had the additional approximately 610 boys (which would be more boys than are currently in the school) that Trinity has over Dixie Heights. TheMan guesses that out of 610 boys there would probably be several that could have helped the Colonels in their bid to upset the Rocks, particullarly in that second half when fatigue set in and the Rocks superior numbers came into play.


Trinity has double the amount (100% more) of boys than 12 4A schools (Dixie Heights is one).


Trinity has 50% more boys than another 25 4A schools.


Trinity has 25% more boys than another 13 schools.


The remaining schools Dunbar who has probably a couple hundred boys less than Trinity and St. X.


If we did this exercise with St. X it would be uglier.




TheMan rests his weary fingers until another day.

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St. X has hundreds more boys than Trinity and always has. Why doesn't St. X have 14 states if numbers are the single most important factor?


Numbers are important but coaching is the single most important factor.


Look at Male, you can argue that they have always had a pretty good football team but, it sure seems like the past decade has been one of their best is quite a while. Kinda funny that the same time period is when Redman came in and established his system.


Look at Bolye Co.. A coincidence how successful they are since Coach Smith (I think that is his name) is coaching there now? I seriously doubt it. Before Coach Smith, Boyle County was undershadowed by Danville.


In 1999, Coach Wright left Trinity to return to Indiana due to family sicknesses, a death if the family etc.. He know coaches Warren up near Indianapolis which is the 3rd ranked team in Indiana and beat Ben Davis in the regular season.


Take coach Beatty, Redman, Smith or Wright to the smallest school in KY and I bet all four could build a winning program.


Size matters but, coaching is the key in pretty much all high school sports.

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Originally posted by Bert

Take coach Beatty, Redman, Smith or Wright to the smallest school in KY and I bet all four could build a winning program.


I guess you don't go along with the old saying that Jim's and Joe's matter more than X's and O's. :)


Overall interesting post by TM.

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#'s are the MOST important factor in 4A


you could COMBINE Dixie, Boyle & Mayfield and still have less boys than Trinity


Dixie 1118

Boyle 860

Mayfield 410


2388 (re: KHSAA site)


Trinity 2396 (KHSAA doubles the #'s)


yes, coaches, tradition & hard work do matter

BUT #'s matter most, especially in 4A

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I'm going to try to throw some water on this with two examples. Highlands and Boyle County. Highlands is one of the smaller schools in 3A and I'll bet if I said something like they weren't one of the premier programs in 3A I would have Bluebird feathers thrown from all over the place. Boyle County is now one of the smallest 3A schools having just recently moved up from 2A yet they have won both 3A championships since moving up to that level.


IMHO this whole numbers thing is just an attempt by some to rationalize why public school programs have not done better.

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He has touched on a subject that the Catholic schools hate to discuss. There is an advantage PERIOD. Numbers are important and the ability to recruit (for academic purposes only) and offer financial help to those interested (for academic purposes only).

St.X may not have as many football state championships, but check the other sports. If I am not mistaken, St.X basically wins the overall state championship of all sports every year. If my memory serves me correct, ST.X won the Tennis, Golf, Soccer, Track and Field, Cross Country, Swimming, and maybe wrestling last year. This is not uncommon for St.X. Now is this because they have the best athletes, coaches or is it numbers and recruiting? I know what I think.

Not to take away anything from their coaches, but they would not be as successfull if they were in a normal situation. Beatty at Shawnee, Bullitt Central, or Atherton? Would you here all that about him? He has my respect because I have seen up close how his team execute, but I am very understanding of the situation he is in.

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Originally posted by Sports Fanatic

IMHO this whole numbers thing is just an attempt by some to rationalize why public school programs have not done better.


So let me get this straight. There is no advantage to having more boys to choose from?


Just some more numbers to ponder while you decide.


The difference in size between:


- the smallest A school to the largest A school is 452


- the smallest AA school to the largest AA school is 262


- the smallest AAA school to the largest AAA school is 234


- the smallest AAAA school to Dunbar (the 3rd largest 4A school) is 951


- Dunbar (the 3rd largest 4A school) and Trinity (the 2nd largest 4A school) is 306 - larger than the difference between any of the schools in 2A or 3A.


- Dunbar (the 3rd largest 4a school) and St. X (the largest 4A school) is 1090 - larger than the gap between Beth Haven the smallest school in the state and 4A Whitley County.




The real question is why, with that many kids to pull from, have these two schools been so historically lousy in basketball.

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Why is the numbers arguement never true for basketball? What sets basketball apart from football, soccer, swimming, tennis, track, cross country, and golf? God knows Trinity and X have not dominated basketball for the last few decades.


If you use the numbers argument to say Trinity and X have a much larger body of student to select from for football, soccer, swimming, tennis, etc, why can't either school take advantage of their numbers to put together outstanding basketball teams? It would seem that if you took a school with 500 boys and another with 1300 boys, the school with 1300 boys statistically should be the dominant team.


I'm not asking to be argumentative or a smart alleck, I just can't understand why neither Trinity or X can't make it to the playoffs very often. Actually, Trinity has never made it to the playoffs.

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You have stated numerous facts to show that Trinity has many more boys to play football. There is one other stat I would like to see: What is the percentage of boys that play football at these schools?


Moreover, what would you like to see done? Do you want Trinity and X banished? Do you want the top fifteen populous schools in their own class? Everyone seems to get on here and make points about how Trinity has an advantage, whether it be unfair or fair, yet fails to offer any suggestions. What should Trinity do? Sure we have more boys then anyone except X, but is there anything we can do about it?


Finally, if you took the coaching staff at Trinity and put them at any school in the state, I contend that they would win a state championship within five years.

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Well, TheMan,


You brought up my same point about both schools having the numbers to support strong basketball teams but, in reality, both have been ineffective in the past 20 years or so. Mayby our point about basketball concludes that without effective coaching, numbers really aren't as advantageous as we would think.


I am not going to argue that numbers do not help to a degree, I am not that blind to the facts but, I think both of our points support the arguement that good coaching is much more important that large numbers.

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I agree that numbers matter. So what?


Trinity had the same superior numbers in 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995.... (you get the picture) yet they didn't win.


We have an advantage in numbers right now and it looks like it will get worse (for you, not me) in the upcoming years. Should we close down? Not take more applications?


Private schools are in business to attract students or else they will close. Look what happened to my beloved Flaget and Bishop David, not to mention several girl's schools in the Louisville area.


If your argument concerns the unfairness of it all then why not work to pull your team out of 4A and into an easier league? I personally would much rather play in a private league with other like-minded schools who wanted nothing more than to prove they were the best in the state in any given year. Line your best 11 up against my best 11 and play the game - just like Male and Trinity on December 7.


Everything else is just talk.

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I have a huge block of cheese for all of the whiners here who say numbers matter....I want to make something VERY clear....NUMBERS DO NOT MATTER....believe it or not....its still 11 on 11...no matter how you shape it...I repeat...the game of football is 11 on 11....

11 on 11

When Trinity won thier first state title...they had only 300 or so in the school...so was it the numbers then????

Trinity wins because they EXPECT to win...its tradition...Im sick of the numbers scenario being everyones excuse....and it is just that...AN EXCUSE!!!!

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