Difference in Kobe and Michael

[5wide]

The only reason Kobe was MVP this year was he opened up to his team mates, embraced them, and trusted them on the court. He went away from that some what in the San Antonio series, then completely, IMO, went away from it in the Finals.

 

Jordan always was a better team mate, and better player. He is the greatest, and will always be the greatest.

 

Kobe was getting criticized in this finals for deferring too much to his teammates...how on earth can you say he completely went away from trusting them? And, to say he started to go away from that in the Spurs series is laughable. The won that series in 5 games largely because of the Lakers supporting cast.

 

As for Jordan, the same criticisms plagued him his entire career until he started racking off titles...

 

I don't think Kobe is as good as Jordan, nor have I ever. And, I don't think he'll ever be quite that good. The pre-retirement Jordan and Kobe are very, very similar players...Jordan was just better, IMO.

[MJAlltheWay24]

Actually, Strikes comment doesn't make sense...You can't say someone WAS the best of all time but still think he IS the best of all time...lol.

 

"Was" means used to be...That's the only question I could ask to see what he meant...

 

You are right...my bad.

[MJAlltheWay24]

As for Jordan, the same criticisms plagued him his entire career until he started racking off titles...

 

His entire career before he started winning titles was only four or five seasons, lol

[STRIKE3]

Actually, Strikes comment doesn't make sense...You can't say someone WAS the best of all time but still think he IS the best of all time...lol.

 

"Was" means used to be...That's the only question I could ask to see what he meant...

It makes perfect sense, perhaps you don't understand and you're looking for semantics, so I'll make it clear.

 

I said the following....

Michael Jordan, was the best of all-time....Kobe is not and that is the difference.

Was, as in was playing but not now. If Michael still played, he would be referred to as "IS" the best of all-time.

 

So there is no confusion, Michael Jordan is/was/still is, the best of all-time. This is/was my position on Michael and Kobe.

[born2reign]

I always love this discussion. I think Kobe is better. Kobe, IMO, is the better and more consistent shoter from three (I believe he still owns the record for 3's in a game). Everything else, skillwise, is a wash to me. What this series made me realize is two things:

 

1. Kobe still doesn't elevate his teammates level of play the way Mike did. I think Mike's championship teams were much better than Kobe's team this year. I also think Kobe taking his teams to the playoffs over the last few years (the last two years prior to this one) was amazing. Don't forget that Kobe and these Lakers won the toughest conference, arguably, ever in the NBA this year. Also, don't forget they lost the finals to a 66 win Celtics team with at least one HOFer and three of the top 20 guys in the league this year. I do think that I now have to give Mike a slight edge in this, however.

 

2. Kobe doesn't have a Scottie Pippen (I posted when the Gasol trade was made that he wouldn't push them over the top).

[MJAlltheWay24]

I always love this discussion. I think Kobe is better. Kobe, IMO, is the better and more consistent shoter from three (I believe he still owns the record for 3's in a game). Everything else, skillwise, is a wash to me. What this series made me realize is two things:

 

1. Kobe still doesn't elevate his teammates level of play the way Mike did. I think Mike's championship teams were much better than Kobe's team this year. I also think Kobe taking his teams to the playoffs over the last few years (the last two years prior to this one) was amazing. Don't forget that Kobe and these Lakers won the toughest conference, arguably, ever in the NBA this year. Also, don't forget they lost the finals to a 66 win Celtics team with at least one HOFer and three of the top 20 guys in the league this year. I do think that I now have to give Mike a slight edge in this, however.

 

2. Kobe doesn't have a Scottie Pippen (I posted when the Gasol trade was made that he wouldn't push them over the top).

 

Jordan helped to make Scottie Pippen as good as he was. Put Scottie Pippen with Kobe Bryant and I don't know if many would even remember his name.

[5wide]

Jordan helped to make Scottie Pippen as good as he was. Put Scottie Pippen with Kobe Bryant and I don't know if many would even remember his name.

 

Scottie Pippen is a top 50 player in NBA history...playing with Michael Jordan did not make him the player he was. Playing alongside the best player in league history can only benefit you, but he was a great player in his own right. That's a ridiculous statement.

 

If Michael Jordan could make that big of a difference in a player's game, then everybody he played with should have been an all-star.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Scottie Pippen is a top 50 player in NBA history...playing with Michael Jordan did not make him the player he was. Playing alongside the best player in league history can only benefit you, but he was a great player in his own right. That's a ridiculous statement.

 

If Michael Jordan could make that big of a difference in a player's game, then everybody he played with should have been an all-star.

 

I disagree. Scottie Pippen plays with anyone else and he is a HOFer but not one of the top 50 players of all time.

[5wide]

I disagree. Scottie Pippen plays with anyone else and he is a HOFer but not one of the top 50 players of all time.

 

And, I suspect we'd remember his name...

[MJAlltheWay24]

Scottie Pippen is a top 50 player in NBA history...playing with Michael Jordan did not make him the player he was. Playing alongside the best player in league history can only benefit you, but he was a great player in his own right. That's a ridiculous statement.

 

If Michael Jordan could make that big of a difference in a player's game, then everybody he played with should have been an all-star.

 

I am a big Bulls fan and loved them throughout the 90's...however Scottie Pippen benefited amazingly from playing alongside Jordan and he wouldn't have been considered one of the top 50 players by any means if it wasn't for Jordan (lbbc...he was named that back when the announced the top 50 in the late 90's, he would have probably slipped out of contention by now)

 

Your last statement has no merit, Scottie was his right hand man and that is why he benefitted so much. You could slide in a large amount of players there and they would have done just as well if not better than Scottie. I know there are late bloomers, but he played at Central Arkansas in college (nothing special). I love Pippen almost as much as Jordan, but he really wouldn't have been much without MJ. Jordan turned a pretty good player...to an amazing one.

[MJAlltheWay24]

And back to the the MJ and Kobe thread, I didn't read through all five pages, but one thing that may not have been mentioned that I think plays a decent factor...

 

Not that WGN was centered around the Bulls, but that helped Jordan's hype quite a bit. I could watch basically ever single Bulls game that they played thoughout the regular season...That doesn't help the way they play on the court, but he was able to create a much larger fan base, not just in Chicago. Kobe Bryant doesn't have that.

[Pancake]

It makes perfect sense, perhaps you don't understand and you're looking for semantics, so I'll make it clear.

 

I said the following.... Was, as in was playing but not now. If Michael still played, he would be referred to as "IS" the best of all-time.

 

So there is no confusion, Michael Jordan is/was/still is, the best of all-time. This is/was my position on Michael and Kobe.

 

MJ is the best and not even close in MO...

 

Some could make arguments that Kobe is not the best Laker of all time.

[5wide]

I am a big Bulls fan and loved them throughout the 90's...however Scottie Pippen benefited amazingly from playing alongside Jordan and he wouldn't have been considered one of the top 50 players by any means if it wasn't for Jordan (lbbc...he was named that back when the announced the top 50 in the late 90's, he would have probably slipped out of contention by now)

 

Your last statement has no merit, Scottie was his right hand man and that is why he benefitted so much. You could slide in a large amount of players there and they would have done just as well if not better than Scottie. I know there are late bloomers, but he played at Central Arkansas in college (nothing special). I love Pippen almost as much as Jordan, but he really wouldn't have been much without MJ. Jordan turned a pretty good player...to an amazing one.

 

It has more merit than trying to claim Michael Jordan is responsible for the player Scottie Pippen became. Any "right hand man" benefits from playing alongside a great player. That's doesn't mean the great player made their career...

 

Who was MJ's right hand man before Pippen? Charles Oakley? I don't recall seeing him on the top 50 list...nor do I recall seeing any championship rings on his fingers?

 

I guess Kevin McHale should send a big thank you to Larry Bird for making him the player he was. Also, Magic should send Kareem one too, since he was his right hand man early in his career.

 

Pippen benefitted from playing on one of the best teams of all time (largely because he was on that team) and the presence of Jordan assured that he had a lot of visibility. He would have been a great player regardless, but in another circumstance he probably wouldn't have got the credit he deserved. Rather, he'd have been an "underrated" player.

 

Let's not act like Michael Jordan didn't benefit tremendously from having Scottie Pippen as his running mate. That relationship went both ways. No doubt the lesser of the two players benefits more, but to act like he won the lottery and just got to be the lucky guy appointed as #2 on Jordan's Bulls teams is wrong.

[5wide]

MJ is the best and not even close in MO...

 

Some could make arguments that Kobe is not the best Laker of all time.

 

Some could probably argue that Kobe isn't a top 3 Laker...or perhaps even top 5 at this point...

 

Kobe is like MJ-lite...he just doesn't seem to have that indominable will to win like Jordan had, IMO. Kobe can be broken...I've seen times when he looks like he has given up on games, particularly some playoff games. I can't recall ever seeing Jordan do that. That's not an insult to Kobe, because I think his will to win and drive is tops in the league right now. Rather, it's a testament to MJ's second-to-none determination. That, more than anything else, separates him from Kobe, and everyone else, IMO.

 

Kobe still has some good years left to improve and close the gap. He may reach that level someday...or he may end up being the second best ever. Who knows? Kobe is a great player though. He's got the team and the coach now and everything is set up for him to put a resounding stamp on his legacy. How he leads this current Lakers team and how many rings he wins will determine his legacy.

[MJAlltheWay24]

It has more merit than trying to claim Michael Jordan is responsible for the player Scottie Pippen became. Any "right hand man" benefits from playing alongside a great player. That's doesn't mean the great player made their career...

 

Who was MJ's right hand man before Pippen? Charles Oakley? I don't recall seeing him on the top 50 list...nor do I recall seeing any championship rings on his fingers?

 

I guess Kevin McHale should send a big thank you to Larry Bird for making him the player he was. Also, Magic should send Kareem one too, since he was his right hand man early in his career.

 

Pippen benefitted from playing on one of the best teams of all time (largely because he was on that team) and the presence of Jordan assured that he had a lot of visibility. He would have been a great player regardless, but in another circumstance he probably wouldn't have got the credit he deserved. Rather, he'd have been an "underrated" player.

 

Let's not act like Michael Jordan didn't benefit tremendously from having Scottie Pippen as his running mate. That relationship went both ways. No doubt the lesser of the two players benefits more, but to act like he won the lottery and just got to be the lucky guy appointed as #2 on Jordan's Bulls teams is wrong.

 

You make a great arguement and a good post here, I just don't really agree with you. I think with McHale or Byrd, either could have been the star of their team. Same with Kareem or Magic. Pippen just wasn't that caliber of a player IMO. I loved him with the Bulls and glad he played along side Jordan, but I just feel that without Jordan, he really wouldn't be remembered the much...IMO.