Unity of Coaches

[bulldog77]

That's in part of Tigers post. For example, UK's coaching staff consists of the head coach, the third base coach/recruiting coordinator, the pitching coach and the first base coach who is a "volunteer". They all need to be at all games and practices. The difference is in the staff size. On top of that, the NCAA took away baseball's ability to have GA's, who could do some advanced scouting.

 

That would be the equivalent of a head football coach, offensive and defensive coordinator and QB coach. I find it hard to believe that one of them would leave in the middle of a game week to scout a kid.

 

 

 

Precisely correct. And with the budget limitations of the last NCAA meeting being imposed on baseball yet again, there will be even smaller staffs at most schools. REalize we're not talking about the Arizona's, the USC's, the Florida's et al. We're talking most ly DII, smaller DI and even DIII schools as well as NAIA's.

 

And let me add this. Extending the dead period will only kill those summer programs that are run by high school coaches specifically to help their high school programs. The Midland's of the world would not be affected in the least. Select baseball won't be hurt by this, only the those players trying to get better under the tutelage of their high school coaches.

 

Also, while I have run select baseball programs for years, I agree that 12 and 13 year-olds have absolutely no business playing 40 to 60 games in a summer. But do not lump high school age kids with a passion for the game and a realistic chance to move on to the next level in with 12 to 14 year-old kids. there really is only a small percentage of kids who are having to make the choices being bandied about in this thread. And, I'll say it again, I have had little problem working with the coaches here in No. Ky. (save a very specific few) about playing baseball as the football season starts up.

[leatherneck]

What % of high school football players in KY get a)full scholarship or b)any scholarship? The majority play D3 football.

 

You have to admit though that the number of D1 football scholarships has increased rather dramatically in Ky over the last 10 years. I think a large reason for that is spring football and along with that, the increased committment to football in Ky.

 

Has that hurt the other sports? Sure. Then again, you support the sports the kids want to play. And football interest amongst high school kids has risen dramatically in Ky.

 

Unlike baseball, most football programs don't cut kids thus a whole lot of kids get to participate in football. Unlike baseball, football programs generally bring the dollars into the athletic funds. Unlike baseball, there are no out of school football leagues.

 

Will this proposal hurt high school baseball? Maybe a little, but not much. Will it hurt the summer leagues, probably more so, but I don't really care about the summer leagues much like I don't care about AAU basketball. Will this proposal negatively impact the opportunities of high school players to get college baseball scholarships? It may. But to use your point, what percentage of high school baseball players are getting a full or partial scholarships anyway? My guess is that there are fewer baseball scholarships awarded to Kyians each year than there are football scholarships. And I mentioned in another post, I'm not buying into the argument that college baseball coaches really only have the time to scout during the summer leagues as they don't have time to scout once the college baseball season begins. If thats the case, how in heck do college football coaches find the time to scout high school football players, as both seasons are going on at the same time?

 

Frankly I think soccer has hurt and will continue to hurt baseball much, much more than this proposal will.

[STRIKE3]

....Will this proposal hurt high school baseball? Maybe a little' date=' but not much. Will it hurt the summer leagues, probably more so, [b']but I don't really care about the summer leagues much like I don't care about AAU basketball[/b]....

I strongly and respectfully disagree, because I care about Summer programs, because student-athletes are playing in them, from Baseball, Football and so on. Strongly disagree with you.

 

Will this proposal negatively impact the opportunities of high school players to get college baseball scholarships? It may. But to use your point, what percentage of high school baseball players are getting a full or partial scholarships anyway? My guess is that there are fewer baseball scholarships awarded to Kyians each year than there are football scholarships.

Baseball allows 12 scholarships and Football, how many 72....not even close to comparing numbers and costs. Thus even more reasons, summer play is critical, because your fighting for a small portion of the pie.

 

....And I mentioned in another post, I'm not buying into the argument that college baseball coaches really only have the time to scout during the summer leagues as they don't have time to scout once the college baseball season begins. If thats the case, how in heck do college football coaches find the time to scout high school football players, as both seasons are going on at the same time?

I know many College Coaches very well, have had them attend games to watch players, but done at their convenience and availability, which certainly isn't helpful to Pitchers.

[bulldog77]

You have to admit though that the number of D1 football scholarships has increased rather dramatically in Ky over the last 10 years. I think a large reason for that is spring football and along with that, the increased committment to football in Ky.

 

Has that hurt the other sports? Sure. Then again, you support the sports the kids want to play. And football interest amongst high school kids has risen dramatically in Ky.

 

Unlike baseball, most football programs don't cut kids thus a whole lot of kids get to participate in football. Unlike baseball, football programs generally bring the dollars into the athletic funds. Unlike baseball, there are no out of school football leagues.

 

Will this proposal hurt high school baseball? Maybe a little, but not much. Will it hurt the summer leagues, probably more so, but I don't really care about the summer leagues much like I don't care about AAU basketball. Will this proposal negatively impact the opportunities of high school players to get college baseball scholarships? It may. But to use your point, what percentage of high school baseball players are getting a full or partial scholarships anyway? My guess is that there are fewer baseball scholarships awarded to Kyians each year than there are football scholarships. And I mentioned in another post, I'm not buying into the argument that college baseball coaches really only have the time to scout during the summer leagues as they don't have time to scout once the college baseball season begins. If thats the case, how in heck do college football coaches find the time to scout high school football players, as both seasons are going on at the same time?

 

Frankly I think soccer has hurt and will continue to hurt baseball much, much more than this proposal will.

 

 

 

LN I always respect your opinion here but in this I think your clear football bias is showing and perhaps you are a bit misinformed in some areas. While soccer did indeed make inroads into amateur baseball 20 years ago, that phenomem=non has disappeared quite frankly. Are baseball numbers down? Yes, but not to the extent that doomsdayers were predicting 1n 1985.

 

A number of people have explained the problem with baseball scouting and recruiting and it is very true. Baseball seems to be the step-child of the NCAA even though the college world series is the third largest money-making event for the Association. Coaching staff cuts, scholarship limitations etc. seem to be the norm rather than the exception for the NCAA. With that said, however, more schools offer baseball than football so the numbers are less far apart than you might expect in terms of opportunities. If you'll look at the rosters of the college baseball programs in this state, they are chock full of in-state kids, and that speaks well of the baseball talent in our fine commonwealth.

 

No baseball guy wants to place undue limitations on football. Heck, football weight programs (despite what someone said earlier) have helped my baseball programs for years. We don't want to hurt them, just stop hurting us, that's all.

[leatherneck]

Football budgets, often include recruiting $$$ allowances, plus have considerable more staff. Camps, videos, initial contact, attending practices do happen but not even comparable to Baseball, in expense.

 

At the same time, I've emphasized "Youth Programs", which aren't all HS sponsored. There are entirely too many to name but some enjoy, look forward to and excel in participating in these.

 

Colleges will find that player, that fits "their level of play"....but what about that D3, NAIA or marginal player, who doesn't live within 30-35 minutes from a D1 program in KY and may be better suited for that OH program. How do they find the budget and time, to travel down. They are often seen, in Summer games which is my point of contention, to not make kids choose....do I or don't I.

 

 

Sounds like college baseball budgets will need to be increased then if they want to make sure they are seeing the better players. And if they aren't increased, sounds like the college is making the determination as to where their interest is placed. Further, I'm not interested in setting up high school sports schedules because college baseball programs don't have the budget to do in season scouting.

 

And while I agree with you that its a shame that some kids sometimes have to make choices, at the risk of sounding cavalier, that's life. As all levels of sports have become more and more competitive, more and more kids are and will be forced to concentrate on one or two sports. You and I may not like it, much like our grandfathers may not have liked the horse and buggy being replaced by the automobile. But it happened and life moved on.

[STRIKE3]

....No baseball guy wants to place undue limitations on football. Heck, football weight programs (despite what someone said earlier) have helped my baseball programs for years. We don't want to hurt them, just stop hurting us. that's all.

Very well summed up.

[94 Camel]

You have to admit though that the number of D1 football scholarships has increased rather dramatically in Ky over the last 10 years. I think a large reason for that is spring football and along with that, the increased committment to football in Ky.

 

Has that hurt the other sports? Sure. Then again, you support the sports the kids want to play. And football interest amongst high school kids has risen dramatically in Ky.

 

Unlike baseball, most football programs don't cut kids thus a whole lot of kids get to participate in football. Unlike baseball, football programs generally bring the dollars into the athletic funds. Unlike baseball, there are no out of school football leagues.

 

Will this proposal hurt high school baseball? Maybe a little, but not much. Will it hurt the summer leagues, probably more so, but I don't really care about the summer leagues much like I don't care about AAU basketball. Will this proposal negatively impact the opportunities of high school players to get college baseball scholarships? It may. But to use your point, what percentage of high school baseball players are getting a full or partial scholarships anyway? My guess is that there are fewer baseball scholarships awarded to Kyians each year than there are football scholarships. And I mentioned in another post, I'm not buying into the argument that college baseball coaches really only have the time to scout during the summer leagues as they don't have time to scout once the college baseball season begins. If thats the case, how in heck do college football coaches find the time to scout high school football players, as both seasons are going on at the same time?

 

Frankly I think soccer has hurt and will continue to hurt baseball much, much more than this proposal will.

 

I agree with so many of your points that it is tough to respond to each. However, not the least, is that summer baseball is no more important to AAU basketball. When it comes to KHSAA or high school coaches decisions, they should be concerned with neither.

[STRIKE3]

Sounds like college baseball budgets will need to be increased then if they want to make sure they are seeing the better players. And if they aren't increased, sounds like the college is making the determination as to where their interest is placed. Further, I'm not interested in setting up high school sports schedules because college baseball programs don't have the budget to do in season scouting.

 

And while I agree with you that its a shame that some kids sometimes have to make choices, at the risk of sounding cavalier, that's life. As all levels of sports have become more and more competitive, more and more kids are and will be forced to concentrate on one or two sports. You and I may not like it, much like our grandfathers may not have liked the horse and buggy being replaced by the automobile. But it happened and life moved on.

Baseball is not the revenue generating sport, in HS or College to allow scouting revenue. Many D3, NAIA or JUCO have to rely on summer camps, after being informed of players.

 

No one mentioned setting up HS sports schedules, to accommodate Colleges but cutting into summer youth programs, for more Football doesn't help those who are trying.

 

The specialization you speak of, that is life....is exactly what most of us Baseball people and sports fans in general, are complaining about and what we would like to change.

[leatherneck]

LN I always respect you opinion here but in this I think your clear football bias is showing and perhaps you are a bit misinformed in some areas. While soccer did indeed make inroads into amateur baseball 20 years ago, that phenomem=non has disappeared quite frankly. Are baseball numbers down? Yes, but not to the extent that doomsdayers were predicting 1n 1985.

 

A number of people have explained the problem with baseball scouting and recruiting and it is very true. Baseball seems to be the step-child of the NCAA even though the college world series is the third largest money-making event for the Association. Coaching staff cuts, scholarship limitations etc. seem to be the norm rather than the exception for the NCAA. With that said, however, more schools offer baseball than football so the numbers are less far apart than you might expect in terms of opportunities. If you'll look at the rosters of the college baseball programs in this state, they are chock full of in-state kids, and that speaks well of the baseball talent in our fine commonwealth.

 

No baseball guy wants to place undue limitations on football. Heck, football weight programs (despite what someone said earlier) have helped my baseball programs for years. We don't want to hurt them, just stop hurting us. that's all.

 

And I yours. But do you realistically expect the KHSAA to set its schedules based on the NCAA treating baseball as a step child?

 

I may have a football bias, if by bias you mean its my favorite sport. Then again, I think almost every one of us has one sport that they like the most. So is it fair for me to state that Strike and perhaps you are letting your baseball bias affect the way you are looking at this proposal?

 

As for soccer's effect on baseball, heck I don't remember what was forecasted in 2005, much less 1985. What I do know is that the Ft. Thomas Junior Baseball League is suffering big time in participation and it has nothing to do with the Junior Football League (as football doesn't even begin to get rolling way until the baseball season is over in Ft. Thomas). From what I'm told and observed the major impact has been due to soccer. Frankly, youth baseball is somewhat boring to kids. A whole lot of sitting on the bench when your team is at bat or standing around when your team is in the field (particularly in the early years when its rare that the ball leaves the infield). Whereas soccer (which I personally find considerably boring and have jokingly proposed to people that we eliminate all the regulation time and just start and end with the sudden death kick offs, which are very exciting) is a lot more fun to the kids because of all the running around.

 

Thus, to the extent I am misinformed, my misinformation is based only on my own observations.

[Under the Lights]

Precisely correct. And with the budget limitations of the last NCAA meeting being imposed on baseball yet again, there will be even smaller staffs at most schools. REalize we're not talking about the Arizona's, the USC's, the Florida's et al. We're talking most ly DII, smaller DI and even DIII schools as well as NAIA's.

 

And let me add this. Extending the dead period will only kill those summer programs that are run by high school coaches specifically to help their high school programs. The Midland's of the world would not be affected in the least. Select baseball won't be hurt by this, only the those players trying to get better under the tutelage of their high school coaches.

 

Also, while I have run select baseball programs for years, I agree that 12 and 13 year-olds have absolutely no business playing 40 to 60 games in a summer. But do not lump high school age kids with a passion for the game and a realistic chance to move on to the next level in with 12 to 14 year-old kids. there really is only a small percentage of kids who are having to make the choices being bandied about in this thread. And, I'll say it again, I have had little problem working with the coaches here in No. Ky. (save a very specific few) about playing baseball as the football season starts up.

 

This would be illegal under KHSAA rules. HS coaches cannot coach their teams during the summer time.

[STRIKE3]

This would be illegal under KHSAA rules. HS coaches cannot coach their teams during the summer time.

Yes they can coach summer teams, until school starts again and excluding the current Dead Period.

 

There are certain uniform, equipment and expense requirements to be met, per KHSAA ByLaws, but they can coach.

[bulldog77]

And I yours. But do you realistically expect the KHSAA to set its schedules based on the NCAA treating baseball as a step child?

 

I may have a football bias, if by bias you mean its my favorite sport. Then again, I think almost every one of us has one sport that they like the most. So is it fair for me to state that Strike and perhaps you are letting your baseball bias affect the way you are looking at this proposal?

 

As for soccer's effect on baseball, heck I don't remember what was forecasted in 2005, much less 1985. What I do know is that the Ft. Thomas Junior Baseball League is suffering big time in participation and it has nothing to do with the Junior Football League (as football doesn't even begin to get rolling way until the baseball season is over in Ft. Thomas). From what I'm told and observed the major impact has been due to soccer. Frankly, youth baseball is somewhat boring to kids. A whole lot of sitting on the bench when your team is at bat or standing around when your team is in the field (particularly in the early years when its rare that the ball leaves the infield). Whereas soccer (which I personally find considerably boring and have jokingly proposed to people that we eliminate all the regulation time and just start and end with the sudden death kick offs, which are very exciting) is a lot more fun to the kids because of all the running around.

 

Thus, to the extent I am misinformed, my misinformation is based only on my own observations.

 

 

 

No, no. I absolutely am not proposing making any decisions based on the actions of outside forces, just explaining the hows and why's and the realities of recruiting for college baseball coaches. You questioned the reasoning being put forth and I merely wanted to explain the realities as I have come to know them. The KHSAA has no jurisdiction when it comes to summer programs and shouldn't. But asking them to have consideration when making decisions that could affect student-athletes should not be out of the realm of possibilities either.

 

You are right, many kids in our "immediate gratification" society do find baseball boring, but the numbers of kids playing is still pretty high compared to what I had heard predicted for our sport. Me? Biased toward baeball? Where in the world would you get that idea? And S3 too? pshaw. And I share your view about "Communist kickball," go straight to the shootouts and I'm there!

 

Bottom line is there is common ground and most coaches can find it. Again, it is the sins of the few that create the problems for the many.

[bulldog77]

This would be illegal under KHSAA rules. HS coaches cannot coach their teams during the summer time.

 

You are incorrect. They may coach their teams after the conclusion of the school calendar year with the exception of the dead period.

[Under the Lights]

Sounds like college baseball budgets will need to be increased then if they want to make sure they are seeing the better players. And if they aren't increased, sounds like the college is making the determination as to where their interest is placed. Further, I'm not interested in setting up high school sports schedules because college baseball programs don't have the budget to do in season scouting.

 

And while I agree with you that its a shame that some kids sometimes have to make choices, at the risk of sounding cavalier, that's life. As all levels of sports have become more and more competitive, more and more kids are and will be forced to concentrate on one or two sports. You and I may not like it, much like our grandfathers may not have liked the horse and buggy being replaced by the automobile. But it happened and life moved on.

 

Couldn't have said it better. I'll take it a step further.....someone stop me when I'm too far off base.

 

So in today's HS coaching world there is less and less dedication and committment to head coaches. Coaches are hired/fired at an alarming rate, especially in football. You cannot fault coaches for trying to do everything they can to prepare their teams for the season. Although it may not be the main source of income for most, if you asked them I'm sure they would say that it is their profession. You cannot have it both ways. You can't place the exceedingly difficult demands of winning on a coach and then ask him to accomodate every scheduling conflict. Can you imagine Coach Mueller saying "Well I know we lost the first two games of the year, but we had a lot of kids in summer sports that weren't able to be at practice." I'm pretty sure that wouldn't go over too well in Ft. Thomas. As Hearsay commented on earlier, these forced decisions aren't necessarily being mandated by the coaches, but are directly or indirectly forced UPON the coaches by administration, fan base, etc. At some point it winning became paramount to all.

[Under the Lights]

Yes they can coach summer teams, until school starts again and excluding the current Dead Period.

 

There are certain uniform, equipment and expense requirements to be met, per KHSAA ByLaws, but they can coach.

 

Sorry, I misinterpreted what was being said. I thought it was implied that the coach was coaching a summer team that consisted of his HS players.