Should wins and losses even be considered as pitchers statistics any longer??

[ggclfan]

I heard Brian Kenney on the MLB Network say last year that pitcher's wins and losses are so arbitrary and so much dependent on luck, that they shouldn't even keep track of them any longer. At first, I thought that was crazy but the more I think about it, I think he may be right. A couple of days Cueto gives up 2 runs on 2 hits and gets an L and tonight Leake, gets lit up for 7 runs in 5 innings and looks like he will get a W. So many starter wins and losses are decided by the bullpen as well. Obviously, how many runs his team scores is very important as well. Greinke has not given up a run his last three starts and has one win to show for it.

 

With all the other more meaningful saber metric stats out there, what do you think??

[Jumper_Dad]

I like Quality Starts - Giving up less than 3 earned runs in 6 innings

[Jumper_Dad]

Last season's leaders

 

Quality Starts Leaders

[TABLE=class: table table-striped table-bordered table-hover tablesaw-swipe, width: 100%]

[TR]

[TH=class: header]Rank[/TH]

[TH=class: header]Player[/TH]

[TH=class: header]Pos[/TH]

[TH=class: header]Team[/TH]

[TH=class: header]GS[/TH]

[TH=class: header]Quality Starts[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Johnny Cueto[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]CIN[/TD]

[TD=align: center]34[/TD]

[TD=align: center]29[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Jon Lester[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]CHC[/TD]

[TD=align: center]32[/TD]

[TD=align: center]27[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Felix Hernandez[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]SEA[/TD]

[TD=align: center]34[/TD]

[TD=align: center]27[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Sonny Gray[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]OAK[/TD]

[TD=align: center]33[/TD]

[TD=align: center]26[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]5[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Corey Kluber[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]CLE[/TD]

[TD=align: center]34[/TD]

[TD=align: center]26[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]6[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Cole Hamels[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]PHI[/TD]

[TD=align: center]30[/TD]

[TD=align: center]25[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]7[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Adam Wainwright[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]STL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]32[/TD]

[TD=align: center]25[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]8[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Julio Teheran[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]ATL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]33[/TD]

[TD=align: center]25[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]9[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Aaron Harang[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]ATL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]33[/TD]

[TD=align: center]25[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]10[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Clayton Kershaw[/TD]

[TD=align: center]P[/TD]

[TD=align: center]LAD[/TD]

[TD=align: center]27[/TD]

[TD=align: center]24[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[LOOGY]

Only wins should matter IMO. There is something to be said about a pitcher who reaches the 20 win mark. I can over look losses when guys like Cueto are pitching well. I judge pitchers on Whip. I love that statistic

[PP1]

I think W's and L's are valuable. I've seen Mike Leake get a 2-0 lead and then give up 2. Then he got a 3-2 lead and promptly gave up a run. Sometimes you have to win 3-2 or 2-0. It's the difference between a pitcher winning 18 or 13 games a year.

[ggclfan]

I like the good old ERA statistic the most...WHIP is a good one too...

[sweet16]

Wins are still important.

[littleluck55]

I heard Brian Kenney on the MLB Network say last year that pitcher's wins and losses are so arbitrary and so much dependent on luck, that they shouldn't even keep track of them any longer. At first, I thought that was crazy but the more I think about it, I think he may be right. A couple of days Cueto gives up 2 runs on 2 hits and gets an L and tonight Leake, gets lit up for 7 runs in 5 innings and looks like he will get a W. So many starter wins and losses are decided by the bullpen as well. Obviously, how many runs his team scores is very important as well. Greinke has not given up a run his last three starts and has one win to show for it.

 

With all the other more meaningful saber metric stats out there, what do you think??

 

He will not get W as he only went 4 innings. Now another reason w-l's mean little, who gets the win. The pitcher who pitches 2 innings and already had a 2 run lead.

 

The other one I don't like, pitcher leaves game down 2-1 and the bullpen gives up 4 runs. Reds come back and score 4 runs but pitcher who only gave up 2 runs takes the loss.

[ggclfan]

He will not get W as he only went 4 innings. Now another reason w-l's mean little, who gets the win. The pitcher who pitches 2 innings and already had a 2 run lead.

 

The other one I don't like, pitcher leaves game down 2-1 and the bullpen gives up 4 runs. Reds come back and score 4 runs but pitcher who only gave up 2 runs takes the loss.

 

Missed that. I turned the game off and thought he went back out for the 5th. Oops. Wins and losses are really meaningless for relievers too. Can come in with a 3 run lead in the 9th, give up 3 to tie the game and then get a win if your team scores in the bottom of the 9th. Regarding starters, Chris Welsh is right when he says, "it's often not how you pitch, it is when you pitch"...

[Clyde]

I like Quality Starts - Giving up less than 3 earned runs in 6 innings

 

Technically, its 3 OR less runs in 6 innings.

 

Some would argue a 4.50 ERA (3 ER in 6 innings) is not "quality."

[mcpapa]

Technically, its 3 OR less runs in 6 innings.

 

Some would argue a 4.50 ERA (3 ER in 6 innings) is not "quality."

 

I would be one of those.

 

Over the long haul, these things even out; and quality pitchers amass quality starts that don't hover around the 4.50 ERA mark. But in theory, I agree.

[ColonelCrazy]

I think it's important to keep track of, but it is not necessarily indicative of the pitcher's quality or value. There are many other statistics that are much more valuable when evaluating a pitcher, many of which have been used for a while now (i.e. WHIP, K/9, etc., ERA with inherited runners, etc.)

[rjs4470]

There is some unfairness on both ends of the the spectrum when looking at wins/losses. You can lose a game while pitching very well, and win a game when you pitch poorly. However, wins and losses do paint a fairly accurate story of how effective you are as a pitcher. If you consistently pitch poorly, the number of wins you have will reflect it. I don't think you can use any one stat to tell the whole story when looking a pitcher.

[UKMustangFan]

No, they shouldn't factor in to a pitcher's worth.

 

Obviously, wins are important as that's the whole point of the game, but from a pitching perspective, they're completely meaningless.

 

Take a guy like Max Scherzer. The dude has an ERA of 1.79, a WHIP of 0.79 and an OBA of .180. He's also got a K/BB ratio of an unheard of 9.29/1.

 

Then you see a guy like Nathan Eovaldi of the Yankees. Dude has an ERA of 4.81, a WHIP of 1.54 and an OBA of .310. His K/BB ratio is a miniscule 2.73/1.

 

Eovaldi is 7-2.

Scherzer is 9-5.

[UKMustangFan]

There is some unfairness on both ends of the the spectrum when looking at wins/losses. You can lose a game while pitching very well, and win a game when you pitch poorly. However, wins and losses do paint a fairly accurate story of how effective you are as a pitcher. If you consistently pitch poorly, the number of wins you have will reflect it. I don't think you can use any one stat to tell the whole story when looking a pitcher.

 

That's just not true. King Felix won a Cy Young in 2010 with basically a .500 record (13-12). By what you're saying, he's wasn't effective that year because his win total wasn't that great.