Should wins and losses even be considered as pitchers statistics any longer??

[rjs4470]

That's just not true. King Felix won a Cy Young in 2010 with basically a .500 record (13-12). By what you're saying, he's wasn't effective that year because his win total wasn't that great.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't think wins are the end all stat that determines a pitchers worth. There have always been guys on both sides of the coin....guys like King Felix who pitched great and didn't have much to show for it (kind of like Cole Hamels this year), and also guys on the other end who just pitch ok, but win a lot of games because of unusual great run support. But while there are exceptions, you can usually get a good idea of how effective a starting pitcher was during a season by glancing at wins. However, wins don't tell the whole story, and it's important to look at other stats as well, to get the clearest picture. I wouldn't judge a pitcher solely on his record of wins vs losses.

[UKMustangFan]

^I guess we simply disagree. I think wins and losses are about as useful as a pitcher's offensive stats at determining their worth as a pitcher.

[Bert]

The problem with wins is it can be affected so much but what team the pitcher is lucky enough to play for. When Roger Clemmons was traded to the Yankees, his wins magically went up yet his strike outs, ERA and other statistics that are not affected by the team as a whole stayed relatively the same. The strong run support the Yankee batters were able to give him compared to the awful run support Red Sox gave him made a huge difference in his wins.

[Jumper_Dad]

Technically, its 3 OR less runs in 6 innings.

 

Some would argue a 4.50 ERA (3 ER in 6 innings) is not "quality."

True, but if your team is down 3 or less after 6 innings, you are still in the game and the starter has kept you in contact with the other team.

 

I just think QS is a good measuring stick for how productive your starter is night in and night out...and how good of a shot he is giving your team to win. Looking at Cueto last season only 5 times in 34 starts did the Reds not come out of the 6th inning and not still be right in the game...with a chance for the Bullpen to close it out.

[rjs4470]

^I guess we simply disagree. I think wins and losses are about as useful as a pitcher's offensive stats at determining their worth as a pitcher.

 

Not as much as you might think. They for sure do not tell the whole story. In some cases, they don't tell much of the story at all. Especially when you look at pitchers around .500. But on the other hand, most of the time, if a pitcher wins more than 17 or 18 games, with very few losses, the rest of his stats will be very good as well. You generally don't win a lot of games solely because your team hits well, or you get lucky a lot.

[AverageJoesGym]

The problem with wins is it can be affected so much but what team the pitcher is lucky enough to play for. When Roger Clemmons was traded to the Yankees, his wins magically went up yet his strike outs, ERA and other statistics that are not affected by the team as a whole stayed relatively the same. The strong run support the Yankee batters were able to give him compared to the awful run support Red Sox gave him made a huge difference in his wins.

 

I get what you are saying but Clemens went from Toronto to New York, not Boston to New York. And his numbers did not stay the same. His two years in Toronto he put up ERAs of 2.05 and 2.65 and recorded 21 and 20 wins. His first 2 seasons in New York he had ERAs of 4.60 and 3.70 and his win totals went down to 14 and 13. Bad example.

[AverageJoesGym]

^I guess we simply disagree. I think wins and losses are about as useful as a pitcher's offensive stats at determining their worth as a pitcher.

 

Wasn't the question whether they should even be recorded any more? I agree that they don't have a lot to do with a pitcher's worth but I don't think there is any reason to discontinue recording them. I don't think that they should factor into arbitration cases or anything like that. However, they do give a representation as to how that pitcher pitched in regards to his competition that day so I see nothing wrong with keeping up with them. If they are going to do away with that stat then maybe it should be recorded as the team's W/L record in days that they started.

[TAC]

The teams with the most wins go to the playoffs. Wins matter.

[Bert]

I get what you are saying but Clemens went from Toronto to New York, not Boston to New York. And his numbers did not stay the same. His two years in Toronto he put up ERAs of 2.05 and 2.65 and recorded 21 and 20 wins. His first 2 seasons in New York he had ERAs of 4.60 and 3.70 and his win totals went down to 14 and 13. Bad example.

 

The example was laid out during a baseball game numerous years ago (when Clemens was pitching for NY) so some of the facts may be off but the were comparing his time at Boston to his time at NY and talking about how run support had such a great impact on his wins in NY. Either way, you get the point of how run support has such an affect on a pitchers wins and how lack of run support could keep great pitchers from reaching 20 win seasons.

[ggclfan]

I am with UKMustang on this. Way too many variable in W/L's that the pitcher has absolutely no control over. However, W/L's will always be tracked as BB is the most statistical game on earth. Too much history of W/L's to do away with it entirely.

[Bert]

The teams with the most wins go to the playoffs. Wins matter.

 

Is the pitcher solely responsible for the win or does some of the credit also belong to the batters? Obviously some belongs to the batters so a statistic that a pitcher doesn't have complete control over obviously not as good as a statistic such as ERA that for the most part is solely the responsibility of the pitcher.

[plantmanky]

Id rather see the state of winning/losing when leaving game. There are several above average pitchers that would probably be classified as upper tier if there team would keep the lead when they left the game.

[rjs4470]

Is the pitcher solely responsible for the win or does some of the credit also belong to the batters? Obviously some belongs to the batters so a statistic that a pitcher doesn't have complete control over obviously not as good as a statistic such as ERA that for the most part is solely the responsibility of the pitcher.

 

ERA is not solely the responsibility of the pitcher. Defense plays a role. And while making errors does not statistically affect ERA the defense still plays a pretty big role. Teams making errors give the offensive team more more outs and chances to score earned runs. And those runs scored by runners that get on base, often score because of hits, not other errors...hits that the pitcher gave up. The other piece to consider on defense, is defensive range. Pitchers that have defenders with below average range, give up more hits, and usually more runs, affecting their ERA.

 

ERA is not necessarily a great indicator of a pitchers ability, especially in the mid ranges. Kind of like wins. Pitchers on the extreme low or Extreme high end of both scales are accurately represented by both stats. Pitcher's in the middle are a little tougher.

 

Bottom line is there are flaws in almost all stats.

[nkuclubbaseball19]

ERA is not solely the responsibility of the pitcher. Defense plays a role. And while making errors does not statistically affect ERA the defense still plays a pretty big role. Teams making errors give the offensive team more more outs and chances to score earned runs. And those runs scored by runners that get on base, often score because of hits, not other errors...hits that the pitcher gave up. The other piece to consider on defense, is defensive range. Pitchers that have defenders with below average range, give up more hits, and usually more runs, affecting their ERA.

 

ERA is not necessarily a great indicator of a pitchers ability, especially in the mid ranges. Kind of like wins. Pitchers on the extreme low or Extreme high end of both scales are accurately represented by both stats. Pitcher's in the middle are a little tougher.

 

Bottom line is there are flaws in almost all stats.

 

Not true. If errors are made, any run that scores after what should have been the third out is unearned, not earned.

 

Example: Strikeout (1 out), Double, Pop Out (2 outs, runner stays at 2nd), Infield Error (Runners now 1st and 3rd), Walk (Bases Loaded), Homerun (4 unearned runs)

 

More chances, yes. Earned runs, no.

 

I know based on your posting history that you know what I posted above but the way you worded your post (or atleast how I read it), made it confusing.

[frankdracman23]

Everyone thinks of W/L records in regards to starters........but relief pitchers that are only brought in when the team is trailing will likely have a better W/L than the pitchers brought in when the team is ahead.