ESPN NY: Michael Vick "I Revolutionized" The Game

[Hellbird]

Here's his regular-season numbers from 2002-06. He made the pro bowl three of five years.

 

2002

8-6-1

Pass — 231-421 (54.9), 2,936yds, 16TD, 8INT

Rush — 113-777, 6.9ypc, 51.8ypg, 8TD

 

2003

3-1

Pass — 50-100 (50), 585yds, 4TD, 3INT

Rush — 40-255, 6.4ypc, 51ypg, 1TD

 

2004

11-4

Pass — 181-321 (56.4), 2,313yds, 14TD, 12INT

Rush — 120-902, 7.5ypc, 60.1ypg, 3TD

 

2005

8-7

Pass — 214-387 (55.3), 2,412yds, 15TD, 13INT

Rush — 102-597, 5.9ypc, 39.8ypg, 6TD

 

2006

7-9

Pass — 204-388 (52.6), 2,474yds, 20TD, 13INT

Rush — 123-1,039, 8.4ypc, 64.9ypg, 2TD

Is love to know what your definition of "most productive" is.

Those numbers aren't very impressive to me. Let me know what your definition of most productive is so I can respond with facts.

[rjs4470]

Randall Cunningham was Michael Vick before Michael Vick, and while he didn't quite rush for 1000 yards in any one season, he was the best runner on that Eagles team, and the first QB that was really feared for his running ability. And while he wasn't the most accurate passer, he still managed to average 25 td passes/3500 yards passing in his 3 prime years ('88, '89, '90) before suffering a major knee injury in the first game of the 1991 season, which is better than any 3 year stretch Vick put together. All with mostly terrible receivers (although Mike Quick was a borderline star). Randall was everything Vick was except bigger....great speed (not as fast as Vick, but not many are), running ability, a cannon arm and a turnover machine. I'd say Randall was also a smarter runner, as he rarely took big hits when he ran (his major knee injury occurred in the pocket). Pretty much the same career arc too, except, Randall was a little more durable, as he was able to play 4 or 5 full seasons. Being an Eagles fan, and a season ticket holder during much of the Randall era, Cunningham and Vick are so similar, it's scary.

[Hellbird]

Randall Cunningham was Michael Vick before Michael Vick, and while he didn't quite rush for 1000 yards in any one season, he was the best runner on that Eagles team, and the first QB that was really feared for his running ability. And while he wasn't the most accurate passer, he still managed to average 25 td passes/3500 yards passing in his 3 prime years ('88, '89, '90) before suffering a major knee injury in the first game of the 1991 season, which is better than any 3 year stretch Vick put together. All with mostly terrible receivers (although Mike Quick was a borderline star). Randall was everything Vick was except bigger....great speed (not as fast as Vick, but not many are), running ability, a cannon arm and a turnover machine. I'd say Randall was also a smarter runner, as he rarely took big hits when he ran (his major knee injury occurred in the pocket). Pretty much the same career arc too, except, Randall was a little more durable, as he was able to play 4 or 5 full seasons. Being an Eagles fan, and a season ticket holder during much of the Randall era, Cunningham and Vick are so similar, it's scary.

 

Thank you. When I think of Vick the first QB that comes to my mind is Cunningham when you think of compatible QB's.

[Jim Schue]

Is love to know what your definition of "most productive" is.

Those numbers aren't very impressive to me. Let me know what your definition of most productive is so I can respond with facts.

 

You must be forgetting we're talking about the NFL here, where only a handful of teams have a truly NFL-quality QB. Nobody claimed he was doing what Brett Favre, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were doing then. After those guys, Vick was as productive as anybody while terrifying defenses way more so than other QBs in the middle of the pack at that time.

[JokersWild24]

You must be forgetting we're talking about the NFL here, where only a handful of teams have a truly NFL-quality QB. Nobody claimed he was doing what Brett Favre, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were doing then. After those guys, Vick was as productive as anybody while terrifying defenses way more so than other QBs in the middle of the pack at that time.

 

 

Exactly.

 

You don't have to be a top 3 QB to "revolutionize" the game in the way I'm talking about it. I don't think you have to be the best QB in the NFL to be revolutionary. If Tebow had a solid pro career given what he'd done in college, I'd still consider him to possibly be "revolutionary" when it came to the college game given what he did.

 

Vick was a franchise QB in the NFL, which is something tons of teams don't have, and he forced teams to drastically alter their game plan in preparation for him. He was the first QB who could beat you with his legs first, then throw (with a strong arm no less) as a secondary measure.

 

 

I don't think I can name the person who actually "invented" the Wildcat formation, though I'd guess Billy Snyder at K-State, David Lee as the OC with the Miami Dolphins, or Gus Malhzan as the mad scientist Offensive Coordinator with nothing to lose, but none were really what I'd consider "great" coaches, but each has staked their claim to the "Wildcat" formation, which revolutionized the game to some extent.

 

With Vick, I think it's more than a fad package that we saw for a few years which barely hangs on now. I think it's a way of thinking about a quarterback and a way of seeing someone who can go out and be effective without being a Peyton Manning, drop-back, pocket passer.

 

Vick didn't win a Super Bowl, but there are lots of colleges who probably gave kids a chance to play QB that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise if it weren't for him.

 

Finally, imagine Vick with a franchise like the Packers or 49ers instead of the Falcons. What if he'd have went to an organization with a history of winning instead of a mediocre sports town like Atlanta???

[JokersWild24]

Randall Cunningham was Michael Vick before Michael Vick, and while he didn't quite rush for 1000 yards in any one season, he was the best runner on that Eagles team, and the first QB that was really feared for his running ability. And while he wasn't the most accurate passer, he still managed to average 25 td passes/3500 yards passing in his 3 prime years ('88, '89, '90) before suffering a major knee injury in the first game of the 1991 season, which is better than any 3 year stretch Vick put together. All with mostly terrible receivers (although Mike Quick was a borderline star). Randall was everything Vick was except bigger....great speed (not as fast as Vick, but not many are), running ability, a cannon arm and a turnover machine. I'd say Randall was also a smarter runner, as he rarely took big hits when he ran (his major knee injury occurred in the pocket). Pretty much the same career arc too, except, Randall was a little more durable, as he was able to play 4 or 5 full seasons. Being an Eagles fan, and a season ticket holder during much of the Randall era, Cunningham and Vick are so similar, it's scary.

 

 

Awesome stuff. As a kid born in '84, I didn't get to see Cunningham, but if Vick is as revolutionary as him, then that's pretty high status to me.

[Hellbird]

You must be forgetting we're talking about the NFL here, where only a handful of teams have a truly NFL-quality QB. Nobody claimed he was doing what Brett Favre, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were doing then. After those guys, Vick was as productive as anybody while terrifying defenses way more so than other QBs in the middle of the pack at that time.

Ok Jim, since you didn't answer the question about what you defined "Most Productive" actually meant, I went ahead and did some research.

 

You stated Vick was among the most productive QB's in the 5 year span from 2002-2006, so I went ahead and looked up how he did those years compared to everyone else in the league. The numbers don't lie and they aren't very good. Here is what I found.

 

I first looked at 3 QB stats, QB Rating, TD's, and Compl % and I made sure that their had to be at least 10 pass attempts by a QB to be considered.

 

2002 Vick finished 26th in QB Rating, Vick finished with the 20th most TD passes, Vick Finished 58th in compl %

2003 Vick finished 47th in QB Rating, Vick finished 43rd in TD's, Vick finished 58th in Compl %

2004 Vick finished 28th in QB Rating, Vick finished 24th in TD's, Vick finished 40th in Compl %

2005 Vick finished 40th in QB Rating, Vick finished 18th in TD's, Vick finished 52nd in Compl %

2006 Vick finished 35th in QB Rating, Vick finished 10th in TD's, Vick finished 57th in Compl %

 

Now I then got to thinking, wonder where Vick finished in Interceptions so I looked that up also.

2002 Vick threw the 28th most INT's (not bad)

2003 Vick threw the 45th most INT's (not bad)

2004 Vick threw the 15th most INT's

2005 Vick threw the 8th most INT's

2006 Vick threw the 13th most INT's

 

None of these stats have his rushing stats, but we all agree he was a great running QB, but that is only part of being a QB.

 

Now with all that done in what you claim he was among the most productive in the league in that time frame, what it shows instead is he (as I've claimed) has been one of the most overrated. He never finished above 15th in any QB stat that you'd want him to be except for 1 time in only 1 of the 3 categories over the 5 year span and that was TD's thrown where he was 10th in 2006.

 

To give you a better overall picture of how he played in those 5 years here are his averages in each category.

QB Rating Vick avg'd 35th best in the entire league

TD Thrown Vick avg'd 23rd best in the entire league

Compl% Vick avg'd having the 53rd best in the entire league

 

Not good.

 

So what exactly do you consider "Most Productive" for a QB because if you consider rushing for 45 yards a game and rushing for 0.28 TD's a game for your career as being among the most productive then I think I need to play in the NFL because using those measurables I could make millions! Vick doesn't even avg 1/2 a TD a game and he is among the worst in passing, so I'm seriously confused about how he was one of the most productive. Yes Jim, teams have to scheme against him, but who cares? Everyteam schemes against an opposing player to shut them down each week, just because Vick was the one teams schemed against when they played Atlanta doesn't make him one of the best. Vick would be a better RB or WR than he is a QB.

[bugatti]

Exactly.

 

You don't have to be a top 3 QB to "revolutionize" the game in the way I'm talking about it. I don't think you have to be the best QB in the NFL to be revolutionary. If Tebow had a solid pro career given what he'd done in college, I'd still consider him to possibly be "revolutionary" when it came to the college game given what he did.

 

Vick was a franchise QB in the NFL, which is something tons of teams don't have, and he forced teams to drastically alter their game plan in preparation for him. He was the first QB who could beat you with his legs first, then throw (with a strong arm no less) as a secondary measure.

 

 

I don't think I can name the person who actually "invented" the Wildcat formation, though I'd guess Billy Snyder at K-State, David Lee as the OC with the Miami Dolphins, or Gus Malhzan as the mad scientist Offensive Coordinator with nothing to lose, but none were really what I'd consider "great" coaches, but each has staked their claim to the "Wildcat" formation, which revolutionized the game to some extent.

 

With Vick, I think it's more than a fad package that we saw for a few years which barely hangs on now. I think it's a way of thinking about a quarterback and a way of seeing someone who can go out and be effective without being a Peyton Manning, drop-back, pocket passer.

 

Vick didn't win a Super Bowl, but there are lots of colleges who probably gave kids a chance to play QB that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise if it weren't for him.

 

Finally, imagine Vick with a franchise like the Packers or 49ers instead of the Falcons. What if he'd have went to an organization with a history of winning instead of a mediocre sports town like Atlanta???

 

"The Wildcat" was reintroduced again in the NFL by the Dolphins with Tony Sporano calling plays 7 or 8 years ago... taken from Gus Malzhan at Arkansas when he was OC there. It has actually been around since football's earliest days (single wing football), but now the term is being misconstrued for spread option football. Very seldom do you see teams run "The Wildcat" any longer. Two totally different things. Pop Warner technically invented the single-wing so he probably deserves most credit

 

Vick was the first true elite athlete playmaker to succeed in the NFL without having to rely upon his arm to consistently win games. That is probably what he means by revolutionize. Again, not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to explaining things.

[rjs4470]

Vick was the first true elite athlete playmaker to succeed in the NFL without having to rely upon his arm to consistently win games. That is probably what he means by revolutionize. Again, not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to explaining things.

 

Again, Randall Cunningham was the first. Great runner, that teams feared, and a more prolific passer. Plus he could have been a Pro Bowl punter (he had a 90+ yard punt in a game and the Eagles quick kicked often while he was the QB). Both had roughly 8 years as a starter. Randall threw for more yards, more touchdowns, with only about 800 yards less rushing. No doubt, Vick is a great athlete, and a unique QB, perhaps the most electric and exciting (not the best) player in the Nfl in his prime. But Randall was the exact same thing, and arguably a little better a decade before Vick.

[bugatti]

Again, Randall Cunningham was the first. Great runner, that teams feared, and a more prolific passer. Plus he could have been a Pro Bowl punter (he had a 90+ yard punt in a game and the Eagles quick kicked often while he was the QB). Both had roughly 8 years as a starter. Randall threw for more yards, more touchdowns, with only about 800 yards less rushing. No doubt, Vick is a great athlete, and a unique QB, perhaps the most electric and exciting (not the best) player in the Nfl in his prime. But Randall was the exact same thing, and arguably a little better a decade before Vick.

Randall Cunningham is the main reason I am an Eagles fan to this day. You can make the case his career was better, but he was forced in to a system more so than Vick. I still felt like I was watching a QB play despite his playmaking abilities with Randall. With Vick, I feel like I am watching a playmaker having to play QB. Not sure that makes sense but it does to me.

[rjs4470]

Randall Cunningham is the main reason I am an Eagles fan to this day. You can make the case his career was better, but he was forced in to a system more so than Vick. I still felt like I was watching a QB play despite his playmaking abilities with Randall. With Vick, I feel like I am watching a playmaker having to play QB. Not sure that makes sense but it does to me.

 

In my opinion, Cunningham was the system when he was the Eagles QB. Buddy Ryan basically ignored the offensive side of the ball when he was head coach. They had no running game aside from Randall, the two best receivers were a tight end (Keith Jackson) and a slow fullback (Keith Byars). The best wide receiver, Fred Barnett, was just average. And you could see just how bad the Eagles system was when Randall was hurt and not playing. when Randall came out of retirement after the injuries, and his running ability had gone, and got into a scent system, with a few playmakers, he did become a very goood pocket QB.

[bugatti]

In my opinion, Cunningham was the system when he was the Eagles QB. Buddy Ryan basically ignored the offensive side of the ball when he was head coach. They had no running game aside from Randall, the two best receivers were a tight end (Keith Jackson) and a slow fullback (Keith Byars). The best wide receiver, Fred Barnett, was just average. And you could see just how bad the Eagles system was when Randall was hurt and not playing. when Randall came out of retirement after the injuries, and his running ability had gone, and got into a scent system, with a few playmakers, he did become a very goood pocket QB.

He led the league in '98 with the Vikings in rating I believe.

[rjs4470]

He led the league in '98 with the Vikings in rating I believe.

Yep, had his best passing year ever. Of course he was throwing to Chris Carter, Randy Moss and had Robert Smith in the backfield.

[BigTuna6]

Josh Freeman might struggle to outrun me.

 

The hefty lefty moves better than Freeman