Question for officials:

[ColonelMike]

XP lineup question:

 

Many teams run the "swinging ladder" formation where the center, holder, and kicker line up normally while the rest of the team lines up near the sideline. If no one was covering up the center the center was an eligible receiver.

 

Is this no longer true if he's not wearing a non-lineman number?

 

Good grief there's more negatives in that last sentence than my old English teacher would ever allow. Gotta think for a minute to figure out the question...:confused:

 

Let's re-word: If this no longer true if he's wearing a lineman number?

 

I'd like to know the answer, too! Hadn't seen this much since the 70s and early 80s, and now suddenly, it's re-appearing all over the place. Would love to know the rule.

[True blue (and gold)]

Thanks for posting all of these questions! I've learned quite a few things just reading through the thread! :thumb:

[offside]

Would be interested to know if anyone has ever seen a touchdown awarded for anything? I believe that an official can do this!

 

1953 Cotton Bowl, Rice v. Alabama:

The Owls had beaten Texas, 18-13, in Austin, and smothered the Aggies, 34-7, in Houston. By the time the New Year's Day Cotton Bowl match with Alabama loomed, the Taylor, Texas, scatback was on a roll. Against the Tide, he struck early and often. The day's stats would show, in a 28-6 victory, that Maegle rolled to 265 yards in only eleven carries, scoring three times, still a Cotton Bowl record. But the carry of the day was one that will live in the annals of college football history. In the second quarter, with the Owls already up 7-0, they set up shop on their own five yard line. Maegle took a quick pitch, broke off-tackle, and headed for the sidelines. With nothing but daylight ahead, he was headed for a 95-yard touchdown run.

 

On the 'Bama bench, Tommy Lewis, a reserve back, had had all he could take. Maegle was in the clear, at the Alabama 40, when Lewis burst off the bench to bring him down. Confusion reigned; the officials huddled. Coach Neely dashed across the field, challenging Tide coach Harold "Red" Drew. "Rayud, Rayud," he drawled, "what did yo boy think he was doin'?" Lewis moaned, "Coach, I was jus' so full of Ala-bahma." The officials awarded Rice the TD; the Owls won going away-- and both players later traveled to New York to tell about it on the Ed Sullivan show.

 

Dickie Maegle later said he felt like Ed Sullivan treated him like the heel and Tommy Lewis like a hero. "Heck, I was the one who scored the touchdown!" he said.

 

In any event, for years it was considered THE most famous play in college football history. And even with the demise of historical perspective by today's media and fans, it still ranks as one of the greatest -- and probably the most bizarre.

Edited October 7, 2009 by offside

[zebra's eyes]

Had something like this happen in a game a few years ago. He was the 11th defensive player that came on the field right after the play started and made td saving tackle. We discussed and called unsportsmanlike but next time we will award the td!

[offside]

Had something like this happen in a game a few years ago. He was the 11th defensive player that came on the field right after the play started and made td saving tackle. We discussed and called unsportsmanlike but next time we will award the td!

Is there a difference between your play and the one from the '53 Cotton Bowl?

 

Why USC? What's the difference between Illegal Participation...9-6-3 or 9-6-4a, and UnfairActs...9-9-1?

 

Are you sure a dead ball foul or awarding a score is correct? Is there a casebook play?

[Hey-Ref]

Here is the rule governing forward pass eligibility... (A players are on offense at the snap, B on defense)

 

NFHS Rule 7-5

ART. 6 . . . Pass eligibility rules apply only to a legal forward pass. The

following players are eligible pass receivers:

a. All A players eligible by position and number include those who, at the time

of the snap, are on the ends of their scrimmage line or legally behind the

line (possible total of six) and are numbered 1-49 or 80-99. (See 7-2-5b

EXCEPTION 2)

b. All A players become eligible when B touches a legal forward pass.

c. All B players are eligible.

d. A player who is eligible at the start of the down remains eligible throughout

the down.

 

Exception 7-2-5b deals with eligibility of players when a team lines up or shifts into scrimmage kick formations...

 

NFHS Rule 7-2-5b

ART. 5 . . . Player formation and numbering requirements include:

a. At the snap, at least seven A players shall be on their line of scrimmage.

b. At the snap, at least five A players on their line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation

as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99. If

Team A has the snapper in the game under this exception, Team A shall have at least

four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its line of scrimmage. The snapper in the

game under this exception must be between the ends and is an ineligible forwardpass

receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).

2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick

formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of any

A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume

an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible

forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-

6b).

 

This exception to pass eligibility rules was modified for 2009 to eliminate the A-11 offense as a legal use of the exception. Recall the A-11 took advantage of the pass eligibility rules by lining the team up in scrimmage kick formation on every down.

[Hey-Ref]

XP lineup question:

 

Many teams run the "swinging ladder" formation where the center, holder, and kicker line up normally while the rest of the team lines up near the sideline. If no one was covering up the center the center was an eligible receiver.

 

Is this no longer true if he's not wearing a non-lineman number?

 

So! Based on the rules printed above, the snapper on the Try may be eligible if he has an eligible number AND if he is on the end of the line when he assumed his initial position in the formation AND remains on the end of the line until the ball is snapped. If he is ever covered up during this swinging ladder, or swinging gate, process he becomes ineligible. Exception 1 above applies only to first, second or third down plays, while exception 2 applies to 4th down and try situation.

[Clyde]

So! Based on the rules printed above, the snapper on the Try may be eligible if he has an eligible number AND if he is on the end of the line when he assumed his initial position in the formation AND remains on the end of the line until the ball is snapped. If he is ever covered up during this swinging ladder, or swinging gate, process he becomes ineligible. Exception 1 above applies only to first, second or third down plays, while exception 2 applies to 4th down and try situation.

 

So #84 is the snapper. He's not covered up at the snap and he's on the end.

 

He can go out for a pass on the 2 pt conversion, correct?

[Hey-Ref]

So #84 is the snapper. He's not covered up at the snap and he's on the end.

 

He can go out for a pass on the 2 pt conversion, correct?

 

If #84 is the snapper AND on the end of his line of scrimmage, when he takes his initial position in the formation, AND until the ball is snapped, then yes he is an eligible receiver on 4th down and for the try. But not so in a scrimmage kick formation on 1st, 2nd or 3rd downs.

 

If #84 is the snapper and covered up in his initial position, then the team shifts to uncover him, he is ineligible. He must be eligible by number, and by position from the time he takes his initial position in the formation until the ball is snapped, regardless of shifts..

[Clyde]

Dixie/Holmes game tonight. Late in the first half. Dixie kid catches a ball on 2nd or 3rd down and goes down inbounds 3 or 4 yards short of the first down. Official stops the clock. Lets everyone get set. White hat the starts the clock.

 

Why was the clock stopped?

[Clyde]

Dixie/Holmes game tonight. Late in the first half. Dixie kid catches a ball on 2nd or 3rd down and goes down inbounds 3 or 4 yards short of the first down. Official stops the clock. Lets everyone get set. White hat the starts the clock.

 

Why was the clock stopped?

 

Any thoughts on this?

[crunch2376]

Any thoughts on this?

 

If the situation happened the way you saw it, it was incorrect. Can't speak for the official that stopped the clock but we have all incorrectly stopped the clock by accident.....thinking the line to gain had been met (double stakes situation), thinking the play that just ended was 4th down, hearing a coach yell "time out" and then finding that not to be the case, etc. I am sure there was a legit reason that the official stopped it and when he or someone else on the crew realized it was wrong, they started it back up.

:idunno:

[Clyde]

At what point is a receiver to be deemed to have possession of a pass? Here's what I saw in the ND/USC game yesterday.

 

ND TE with one foot on the ground and falling towards the ground gets the tipped pass with one hand. He then has his knee hit out of bounds. He then pulls the ball into his body and retains possession. It was called incomplete.

 

If he's not juggling the ball is that possession?

[offside]

At what point is a receiver to be deemed to have possession of a pass? Here's what I saw in the ND/USC game yesterday.

 

ND TE with one foot on the ground and falling towards the ground gets the tipped pass with one hand. He then has his knee hit out of bounds. He then pulls the ball into his body and retains possession. It was called incomplete.

 

If he's not juggling the ball is that possession?

 

It's a judgment call based on the definition of a "catch". Your question is based on an NCAA game, but since this is a HS forum and the basics are the same, here's the NFHS definition of what is a catch:

 

Rule 2-4-1...A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds...

 

I didn't see the play (I was being booed elsewhere), but it sounds like the official judged that the receiver did not "possess" or "catch" the ball before his knee hit out of bounds. The NCAA rules also includes the phrase "in his firm grasp" within the definition of catch and "when in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed".