In 6A can Lexington compete with Louisville?

[TigerPaw18]

I disagree with Male or some other Louisville school winning 6A every year with no T or X. Henry Clay would have been one of the dominate schools in recent memory. Two years ago there was no doubt Male would have crushed everyone in the public arena but Male goes through cycles and they are not consistently good like T and X.

 

Then you missed the major point of my post. Go to KHSAA and look at the 3A state championship game every year from 1959 to 1974, for 15 straight years a Jefferson County School WON it ALL. If it was not Flaget, St X or Trinity it was a public Jefferson County School.

 

Then we went away from 3 classes to 4 and then from Jeffco vs State, busing had started the public schools in Jefferson County took a major hit and the Catholic schools benefited.

 

Several programs in Jefferson County are once again strong programs however Jefferson County is divided into 3 districts each one with St X, Trinity or Male in it. You could be he 2nd-4th best team in the state but if the #1-3rd team in the state is in your district tough your not going far in the playoffs. See what I am saying?

 

Those programs like Ballard, Manual, Fern Creek don't get much of a chance to show what they could do against County Teams because they can't get past the big three. Take away X and T and teams like Manual, Ballard etc will roll.

 

I saw Manual play last year and I saw HC play last year. Against one another Manual wins the match up 9 out of 10 times, they are better top to bottom. But because of the obstacles of X, T and sometimes Male how good JeffCo teams are stays a mystery. I am telling you some of them are very good and Jefferson County would remain dominatiing state titles even without X and T.

[TigerPaw18]

Here is what I am saying. There are teams in Louisville, who year in and year out are better than teams anywhere else in the state BUT Louisville, and who could likely beat MOST of the top teams out in the state including Lexington teams , however they will never advance too far into the state tournament because of "The Holy Trinity" in Louisville, (Male, St X, Trinity). Move a 6A team like Fern Creek, Manual or Ballard to any of the 5 districts besides 3, 4 or 5 and they will make to at least the 3rd round of the playoffs 4 out of every 5 years before they get knocked off by one of the big THREE If one of those teams would be lucky enough end up in district 7 or 8 they would likely make the state semis 4 out of every 5 years if not more often.

 

Okay, I don't agree with this point. Henry Clay, Dunbar, Tates Creek and Lafayette would do fine in a district with a Fern Creek or a Ballard IMO (Scott County would do fine as well, though not in Lexington). I think T, X, Male and Manual would win just about any district in the state at 6A, but the other Louisville schools would struggle to establish themselves in Lexington. I believe this would be the case in N. Kentucky as well, but Lexington is the thread topic.

 

You undereastimate teams like Fern Creek, Manual and Ballard. I know at least one coach out in the state that agrees with me, Larry Mofield, hes made it to what the Quarter finals of the state the last two years but each year lost to the only Jefferson county schools he played in the regular season (Fern Creek/Manual)

 

Schools out in the state have an easier road in the playoffs than Jefferson County schools do, that cannot be denied. Jefferson county schools meet X and T in the 1st or 2nd round state schools meet them in 3rd or 4th round take X and T away. Jefferson County will still dominate. Why do you guys think we went to 4 Classes to begin with?

[stick1]

Kids in all communites and towns deal with the things you mentioned. You hit the nail on the head with the biggest problem. Administrations of Fayette Co. Schools. Until an emphasis is put on athletics, in particular football, it will continue to underachieve.

 

I understand those problems are everywhere but I have had kids I coached when I coached middle school that have gone to Trinity, St X, Henry Clay and Bryan Station to name a few. The kids I coached that went to St X and Trinity were kids like Brett+Kyle Saxton that come from one of the best families I've ever been around. There were other great families like the Nissens too. The kids I had at X were families like Jack Hilts. If a kid goes there then their family is paying a hefty price so there is a lot of support from home with those kids. With that comes discipline and usually a good lifestyle at home. Obviously this isn't always the case but I would bet more times than not kids at X + Trinity have a lot of support from home. The kids I coached that went to Henry Clay and Bryan Station were a lot different. I am not stereotyping at all because there were some outstanding parents like Elijah Barnette's or Blake Green's etc. However there was a HUGE number of kids that didn't have the dad at home or in some cases no parents that supported them. This is not a slam on Henry Clay or Bryan Station becasue there are some GREAT parents there but I had kids dealing with issues at home that would blow some people's mind. Often times those kids only had their coaches + teachers to support them. I hope this doesn't come off as a knock to parents at Henry Clay + Bryan Station because that is not my intent at all. I am trying to shed some light from living through it with middle school kids that there is a different breed of support from home between a large number of these kids. With that comes things such as discipline, goal setting, being accountable and setting high standards.

I've coached against St X and Trinity. They are as well coached as anybody in the state! I've also been around Henry Clay + Bryan Station and I applaude those guys for often times being the most important people in their players lives. That is the case at any school including X + T. Guys like Coach Cov are as good as they come. I know first hand the battles that the coaches in Lexington are facing against the administration and the home lives of a lot of kids. I also think the boycott there has hurt a whole lot more than it's helped. That one has more to do with administration than anything IMO.

[born2reign]

Tigerpaw 18,

 

I am giving Manual, I want to be clear on that. I think that X, T, Male and Manual would be favored in any 6A district in the state. It is in both of my original posts.

 

I just don't believe any other program in the state would dominate a Lexington district. I honestly believe that Henry Clay, Dunbar, Lafayette and Tates Creek would do what they have done over the past decade plus; you would see an ebb and flow of different teams at the top, but no consistent domination of the district. If these teams were that good, wouldn't they challenge, occassionally, the big boys? They do just as well as the 6A as the Lexington schools when faced with the big boys in 6A. Dixie Heights and Lexington Catholic have had more success against X and T than Ballard or Fern Creek has had recently.

[JIM SEYMOUR # 85]

I understand those problems are everywhere but I have had kids I coached when I coached middle school that have gone to Trinity, St X, Henry Clay and Bryan Station to name a few. The kids I coached that went to St X and Trinity were kids like Brett+Kyle Saxton that come from one of the best families I've ever been around. There were other great families like the Nissens too. The kids I had at X were families like Jack Hilts. If a kid goes there then their family is paying a hefty price so there is a lot of support from home with those kids. With that comes discipline and usually a good lifestyle at home. Obviously this isn't always the case but I would bet more times than not kids at X + Trinity have a lot of support from home. The kids I coached that went to Henry Clay and Bryan Station were a lot different. I am not stereotyping at all because there were some outstanding parents like Elijah Barnette's or Blake Green's etc. However there was a HUGE number of kids that didn't have the dad at home or in some cases no parents that supported them. This is not a slam on Henry Clay or Bryan Station becasue there are some GREAT parents there but I had kids dealing with issues at home that would blow some people's mind. Often times those kids only had their coaches + teachers to support them. I hope this doesn't come off as a knock to parents at Henry Clay + Bryan Station because that is not my intent at all. I am trying to shed some light from living through it with middle school kids that there is a different breed of support from home between a large number of these kids. With that comes things such as discipline, goal setting, being accountable and setting high standards.

I've coached against St X and Trinity. They are as well coached as anybody in the state! I've also been around Henry Clay + Bryan Station and I applaude those guys for often times being the most important people in their players lives. That is the case at any school including X + T. Guys like Coach Cov are as good as they come. I know first hand the battles that the coaches in Lexington are facing against the administration and the home lives of a lot of kids. I also think the boycott there has hurt a whole lot more than it's helped. That one has more to do with administration than anything IMO.

 

A very thoughtful and insightful analysis. You obviously know about which you speak/write. You hit on an important point - perhaps better fitted for another thread. >

 

"Lack of Support." I agree it is a huge factor. I know there are many possible reasons for it. It is sad. I happened to be at a game between two Jeff. Co schools (Public) last year - and in the Visitor's Stands I counted 25 people at Kickoff. It seems that many teams do not have 1 parent - fan-supporter = per player. Thoughts ???

[YepItsMe]

Stick1 and Jim Seyour #85

 

I completely understand and agree with both your points. I have been fortunate enough to coach in both the public and private school systems. What I would like to add, I do not believe it's a public vs. private or even a black vs. white thing. The young men and students today are a lot different than in the past. In some cases, our kids expect a lot in return without paying the price. When you have a winning tradition at any school it's a lot easier for student-athletes to buy into your system and winning all the needed support will come. I strongly believe the Lexington/Louisville issue wouldnt be up for discussion if Lexington schools had a consist winner year in and year out, it just hasnt happen. The lack of support from parents has always been there and will always be an issue but ultimately it's up to the student-athlete to decide he want to better himself through school and sports. JMO

[JIM SEYMOUR # 85]

YIM

 

Well stated. Good points.

[TigerPaw18]

Tigerpaw 18,

 

I am giving Manual, I want to be clear on that. I think that X, T, Male and Manual would be favored in any 6A district in the state. It is in both of my original posts.

 

I just don't believe any other program in the state would dominate a Lexington district. I honestly believe that Henry Clay, Dunbar, Lafayette and Tates Creek would do what they have done over the past decade plus; you would see an ebb and flow of different teams at the top, but no consistent domination of the district. If these teams were that good, wouldn't they challenge, occassionally, the big boys? They do just as well as the 6A as the Lexington schools when faced with the big boys in 6A. Dixie Heights and Lexington Catholic have had more success against X and T than Ballard or Fern Creek has had recently.

 

 

Lets take Fern Creek as its the one I am most familiar with. They didn't play St X or Trinity last year, however they scrimmaged St X and St X won by 9. I still don't see how you get that a School like Fern Creek couldn't win the majority of the time against a team like HC.

 

2007

Dunbar lost to Trinity 41-7

Lafayette Lost to Trinity 56-6

Henry Clay lost to Trinity 50-14

Those scores show NO MEASURE if success.

 

2006 Last time Fern Creek Played Trinity

 

Fern Creek Lost 51-23 (FC's starting QB was a freshman and he threw for 350+ yards that game)

 

Same year Henry Clay lost to Trinity 56-35 one TD difference

 

Lets go back to 2005 Playoffs

 

Fern Creek lost to Trinity 38-13 Fern Creek also led 13-0 at the half, Trinity just had fresh legs and ran them to death

 

Henry Clay lost to Trinity 41-20 and I am pretty sure HC never led in the game.

 

You are obviously a biased Lexington Citizen. You cannot say based on historical game analysis that Lexington Schools performed ANY better than Fern Creek, who wasn't even the best public team in Louisville those years! Furthermore going back three years I cannot even recall St X playing a school from Lexington. What exactly are you basing your opinion on?

 

In response to your "Challenge" occasionally comment FERN CREEK yes pidly little FERN CREEK beat St X 5 TIMES in the 90's!

When was the last time a Lexington School beat St X?? A Public one that is! It has NEVER happened that I recall.

Edited July 1, 2008 by TigerPaw18

[born2reign]

Lets take Fern Creek as its the one I am most familiar with. They didn't play St X or Trinity last year, however they scrimmaged St X and St X won by 9. I still don't see how you get that a School like Fern Creek couldn't win the majority of the time against a team like HC.

 

2007

Dunbar lost to Trinity 41-7

Lafayette Lost to Trinity 56-6

Henry Clay lost to Trinity 50-14

Those scores show NO MEASURE if success.

 

2006 Last time Fern Creek Played Trinity

 

Fern Creek Lost 51-23 (FC's starting QB was a freshman and he threw for 350+ yards that game)

 

Same year Henry Clay lost to Trinity 56-35 one TD difference

 

Lets go back to 2005 Playoffs

 

Fern Creek lost to Trinity 38-13 Fern Creek also led 13-0 at the half, Trinity just had fresh legs and ran them to death

 

Henry Clay lost to Trinity 41-20 and I am pretty sure HC never led in the game.

 

You are obviously a biased Lexington Citizen. You cannot say based on historical game analysis that Lexington Schools performed ANY better than Fern Creek, who wasn't even the best public team in Louisville those years! Furthermore going back three years I cannot even recall St X playing a school from Lexington. What exactly are you basing your opinion on?

 

In response to your "Challenge" occasionally comment FERN CREEK yes pidly little FERN CREEK beat St X 5 TIMES in the 90's!

When was the last time a Lexington School beat St X?? A Public one that is! It has NEVER happened that I recall.

 

Look, I am a football coach here in Texas with no bias for any team including the ones I coached for in Kentuky.

 

You have shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in terms of stats that show that Fern Ceek could challenge in a Lexington district. You are seriously bringing up a scrimmage and saying that means something; as a coach I'll tell you we never felt like a team was better than us because of the outcome of a scrimmage. You are pointing to games from over a decade ago and saying that means something; so what if Fern Creek beat X in the 90's. They can't play within 3 touchdowns of them now. This analysis is lacking, IMO.

 

The Lexington teams can't play within 3 touchdowns of the big boys either, which is my point. The Big 3 and Manual are top notch in 6A. Everyone else is scratching to get there and have yet to show that they can do that on a consistent basis; as you have shown in your posts with the playoff scores. I base this on the same thing that you are basing this on, my opinion.

 

Prove me wrong by showing me the RECENT playoff victory that Jefferson County schools have had over Trinity and X. They have just as many as the Lexington 6A schools. Meanwhile 3A (current 4A) Lexington Catholic managed a recent (as in this decade) victory over 4A X (current 6A) and Dixie knocked Trinity out of the playoffs (again, this decade).

 

My point is no team in Jefferson County besides the ones that are at the top, Male, T, X, and Manual, have shown any seperation that says they are definitively better than the Lexington 6A schools. That is why you can't point to a stat. Obviously, we disagree. That is fine. :thumb:

[TigerPaw18]

Look, I am a football coach here in Texas with no bias for any team including the ones I coached for in Kentuky.

 

You have shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in terms of stats that show that Fern Ceek could challenge in a Lexington district. You are seriously bringing up a scrimmage and saying that means something; as a coach I'll tell you we never felt like a team was better than us because of the outcome of a scrimmage. You are pointing to games from over a decade ago and saying that means something; so what if Fern Creek beat X in the 90's. They can't play within 3 touchdowns of them now. This analysis is lacking, IMO.

 

The Lexington teams can't play within 3 touchdowns of the big boys either, which is my point. The Big 3 and Manual are top notch in 6A. Everyone else is scratching to get there and have yet to show that they can do that on a consistent basis; as you have shown in your posts with the playoff scores. I base this on the same thing that you are basing this on, my opinion.

 

Prove me wrong by showing me the RECENT playoff victory that Jefferson County schools have had over Trinity and X. They have just as many as the Lexington 6A schools. Meanwhile 3A (current 4A) Lexington Catholic managed a recent (as in this decade) victory over 4A X (current 6A) and Dixie knocked Trinity out of the playoffs (again, this decade).

 

My point is no team in Jefferson County besides the ones that are at the top, Male, T, X, and Manual, have shown any seperation that says they are definitively better than the Lexington 6A schools. That is why you can't point to a stat. Obviously, we disagree. That is fine. :thumb:

 

Why do Lexington AD's not schedule Louisville schools in the regular season?

[born2reign]

Why do Lexington AD's not schedule Louisville schools in the regular season?

 

I honestly don't know, but couldn't I ask the same question of Jefferson County AD's? That goes both ways and, again, doesn't prove any point definitively.

 

Our opinions differ and that's okay.

 

No one in the state is going to stop the big guys at the top anytime soon. There is a 500 lbs. gorilla named Trinity that doesn't lose in the post season. The Tigers have their number in the regular season and are the best chance to beat them in the post season. The only public school programs sniffing the top dogs are Male and Manual, and they haven't caught up just yet.

 

Everyone else is scratching and clawing, but not there yet. I hope a team from outside of this circle emerges because it makes 6A more fun when a Conner or Henry Clay or Boone or Scott County is making some noise. I would love to see a Fern Creek or a Ballard change their fortunes and prove you right, Tiger Paw 18, because that makes it fun to watch and follow. I don't see it happening.

 

I don't see a Lexington school cracking the circle in the next couple of years. Too much depth and experience on the top teams.

[GR8BigBull]

This was just one instance but Manual went to Danvills and played Dunbar in the Bob Allen Classic in 2004 (?). Dunbar was scheduled to return the game in the Rivalry Bowl the next season but backed out. I believe it was a new head coach (Hensley) but still, why would they not make that game? They looked like the real deal in the game in Danville with Vyverberg (sp) at RB and a huge front on O and D. They were hyped before kickoff even chanting some things I can't repeat on this board, ready to send Manual back home with the loss. Manual went on to win the game by 13 points or so. It was a close game for the most part and great competition for both teams. I would like to see some Lexington teams from time to time on the schedule but don't think it will hapen. (Especially now with the extreme cost to travel to these games!)

[TigerPaw18]

The reason I ask about Lexington AD's is I know for a fact in late April there were at least 4 Jefferson County schools that didn't have 10 games on their schedule. No one out in the state outside their districts, and that includes Lexington, would schedule them.

 

Fern Creek has a deal with Meade Co. but I think even with Meade FC only had 6 games on their schedule last time I checked KHSAA they still only had 6 games on there. Seneca, Eastern etc were all in the same boat.

 

NO ONE wants to play the 6A teams in Louisville because in most cases they know they don't stand a chance. And no schools in lower classes in Louisville want to play them either.

 

Fern Creek revitalized the rivalry with Moore last year, trying to get a non-district game they could count on, now I hear after that ONE game Moore backed out, citing the class difference, new coach etc. Bottom line they got SPANKED last year and don't want to play them again.

 

Fern Creek played BOTH St X and Trinity every year, for many years, even though only Trinity was in their district . I look for them to pick up Trinity as a non-district game in the near future if they haven't already.

Edited July 2, 2008 by TigerPaw18

[TigerPaw18]

To answer my own question. They would lose face losing to a L'Ville public school plain and simple.

 

Lafayette and Dunbar both scheduled Trinity this year but won't schedule a public from L'Ville. I guess they are content to sit back and have their fans/followers speculate on how they would do against L'Ville publics based on the severity of their loss to Trinity, they certainly aren't "expected" to beat Trinity.

[YepItsMe]

To answer my own question. They would lose face losing to a L'Ville public school plain and simple.

 

Lafayette and Dunbar both scheduled Trinity this year but won't schedule a public from L'Ville. I guess they are content to sit back and have their fans/followers speculate on how they would do against L'Ville publics based on the severity of their loss to Trinity, they certainly aren't "expected" to beat Trinity.

 

If they are playing T why would they need to play anyone else? To be the best you have to beat the best.....

 

We can speculate all we like but the schools are going to play, who they play. The only people it makes a difference to is individual on BGP.