Question for Old-Timer Reds Fans

[sweet16]

Agree. And if was able to do flips to his position, he would already be there.

 

Really? Ozzie was a great defensive player. He also improved greatly as a hitter. His hit and SB total were solid.

 

With that said, Conception deserves to be in as well.

[OlDog75]

Really? Ozzie was a great defensive player. He also improved greatly as a hitter. His hit and SB total were solid.

 

With that said, Conception deserves to be in as well.

 

Mine was kind of a back-handed remark. In my opinion had Concepcion been a little flashy, folks would have paid more attention to him.

 

Concepcion's stats (.267 BA) (101 HR) (950 RBI) (2,326 H) (.971 Field%)

Smith's stats (.262 BA) ( 28 HR) (793 RBI) (2,460 H) (.965 Field%)

 

Post season Concepcion had (.297 BA) & Smith (.236 BA)

 

The great Ozzie Smith even stated Concepcion should be in HOF, he always voted for him when he was on the Veterans committee.

[bruin66]

No doubt he belongs in the Hall of Fame. The main criterion for me is how a particular player stacked up against the players of his era. Concepcion was the best all-around shortstop, a premium position, and greatly contributed to arguably on of the best teams in the history of baseball.

[rjs4470]

No doubt he belongs in the Hall of Fame. The main criterion for me is how a particular player stacked up against the players of his era. Concepcion was the best all-around shortstop, a premium position, and greatly contributed to arguably on of the best teams in the history of baseball.

 

Except shortstop was a really weak position during his time. And you could make the argument that others were just as good. Bowa was better defensively and no worse offensively. Toby Harrah was better offensively. Campaneris won more World Series titles while putting up just as good numbers. He’s not “clearly” the best of his era, and certainly not in the conversation for best all time. And I don’t think any of the guys I mentioned are Hall of Famers. Concepcion was a very good player, and I’ve have been happy to have him on my team. But he’s not a Hall of Famer.

[Hatz]

Except shortstop was a really weak position during his time. And you could make the argument that others were just as good. Bowa was better defensively and no worse offensively. Toby Harrah was better offensively. Campaneris won more World Series titles while putting up just as good numbers. He’s not “clearly” the best of his era, and certainly not in the conversation for best all time. And I don’t think any of the guys I mentioned are Hall of Famers. Concepcion was a very good player, and I’ve have been happy to have him on my team. But he’s not a Hall of Famer.

 

Bowa was significantly less an offensive threat. Concepcion had a career 101 Homers. Bowa had 15.

[Hatz]

One other factor on the Bowa comparison is that Concepcion hit as well in the post season as well as he hit in the regular season. That’s rare. Bowa did not.

[Jumper_Dad]

Your college roommate stole that line from the who is arguably the best shortstop of the 70's....Larry Bowa....that nickname stuck and many of Concepcion's close friends still call him Elmer. Bowa led the league in fielding 5 of the 10 years in the decade (Concepcion only led the league in fielding once). Bowa only had one season with a fielding percentage below .975...Concepcion only had 2 seasons where his was ABOVE .975. Bowa also turned more double plays, and had 500 more assists. Aside from Gold Gloves (which are notoriously known as a popularity contest), Bowa's fielding stats are simply better than Davey's. On the all time fielding list, Bowa is #14 and Concepcion is #92. Davey is overrated as a fielder if you look at the numbers. And for those who say Concepcion was a better hitter, while Davey had more homers, Bowa had twice as many triples, and had 300 more career hits. And one last thing....Bowa showed up on 4 MVP ballots, compared to two for Concepcion.

Fielding are SS numbers only.

WAR 40.1 to 22.8 Advantage Davey, this is pretty definitive on who is the better player historically.

 

Career Fielding .971 to .980 Bowa

Chances 10,575 to 10,382 Davey

Double Plays 1,290 to 1,265 Davey

Put Outs 3,670 to 3,314 Davey

Assist 6,594 to 6,857 Bowa, 263 more assists but not quite 500 more.

Errors 311 to 211 Bowa, really his only solid advantage over Davey.

RToT 48 to 30 Davey,

Career Range Factor 4.98 (14th all-time) to 4.78 (37th all-time) Davey

Range Factor games at SS, seasons in top 10 10 to 3 Davey

 

MVP Ballots 3 to 4 Bowa

Gold Gloves 5 to 2 Davey

Silver Sluggers 2 to 0 Davey

 

Yeah, I think Davey more than holds his own versus Bowa...overall numbers would even show he is better.

[bruin66]

Fielding are SS numbers only.

WAR 40.1 to 22.8 Advantage Davey, this is pretty definitive on who is the better player historically.

 

Career Fielding .971 to .980 Bowa

Chances 10,575 to 10,382 Davey

Double Plays 1,290 to 1,265 Davey

Put Outs 3,670 to 3,314 Davey

Assist 6,594 to 6,857 Bowa, 263 more assists but not quite 500 more.

Errors 311 to 211 Bowa, really his only solid advantage over Davey.

RToT 48 to 30 Davey,

Career Range Factor 4.98 (14th all-time) to 4.78 (37th all-time) Davey

Range Factor games at SS, seasons in top 10 10 to 3 Davey

 

MVP Ballots 3 to 4 Bowa

Gold Gloves 5 to 2 Davey

Silver Sluggers 2 to 0 Davey

 

Yeah, I think Davey more than holds his own versus Bowa...overall numbers would even show he is better.

 

Nice stat breakdown!

 

Also, consider this:

 

World Series Appearances: Davey 4, Bowa 1

World Series Titles: Davey 2, Bowa 1

[rjs4470]

Bowa was significantly less an offensive threat. Concepcion had a career 101 Homers. Bowa had 15.

 

Bowa had twice as many triples. And Concepcion hit 1/3 of his homers across just two seasons. Davey also had more doubles, but they are pretty even in runs scored, stolen bases and overall hits. Overall Davey was the better offensive threat, but not significantly. Bowa in my opinion was better defensively, despite the gold gloves.

 

Neither belong in the HOF.

[rjs4470]

Nice stat breakdown!

 

Also, consider this:

 

World Series Appearances: Davey 4, Bowa 1

World Series Titles: Davey 2, Bowa 1

 

Campaneris won 3 WS titles.

 

You can split a lot of hairs. Bowa, Davey, and Bert were clearly the top 3, with Toby Harrah in the conversation. You can make arguments for all being the best. I don’t see how any was that much better to say one clearly belongs in the HOF. People say Davey isn’t in because he was overshadowed by great teammates. I think he actually benefits from being on a great team, and is regarded much higher than perhaps he deserves to be. Put him on another team and I don’t think he gets any HOF talk.

 

Shortstop is a tough position. It has traditionally been very weak offensively, which has changed a little since the 80’s. You can argue quite a few of the shortstops that are in, don’t really belong. I don’t think any 70’s shortstop belongs in the HOF.

[sweet16]

Mine was kind of a back-handed remark. In my opinion had Concepcion been a little flashy, folks would have paid more attention to him.

 

Concepcion's stats (.267 BA) (101 HR) (950 RBI) (2,326 H) (.971 Field%)

Smith's stats (.262 BA) ( 28 HR) (793 RBI) (2,460 H) (.965 Field%)

 

Post season Concepcion had (.297 BA) & Smith (.236 BA)

 

The great Ozzie Smith even stated Concepcion should be in HOF, he always voted for him when he was on the Veterans committee.

 

SBS Ozzie 580, 22nd all time and Conception 321.

 

I agree with Ozzie he deserves to be in.

[CincySportsFan]

@rjs4470 you'll have a lot more credibility, to me, if you stop including the mentions of Toby Harrah. I liked Toby. I rooted for him (once he was traded to Cleveland). But he was not among the top shortstops for the decade. Heck, he only played more than 100 games at short 5 out of the 10 years in the 70's. You can say his move to third was natural when Campenaris came to the Rangers. But even when he got traded to Cleveland, they still left him at third base...with Tom (yes, my career WAR is -3.7) Veryzer at shortstop!!

 

Also, another thing that has not been mentioned (in the Larry Bowa vs. Concepcion argument) is who was playing next to them. Not up in the middle as far as a double-play partner...but who covered the hole to their right. I would dare say that Mike Schmidt took away quite a few opportunities from Bowa that Concepcion was forced to take playing next to Pete, Tony or Denis Menke. So more opportunities on perhaps the hardest play for a shortstop to make? Maybe that translates into more errors, maybe it doesn't...I don't know.

 

All I can say is this...SINCE the HOF has elected Ozzie to be in, then there is no reason Davey shouldn't be in. (You could make the argument that even Ozzie doesn't deserve to be in, but since we can't go back in time on that...it's a moot point.)

[rjs4470]

@rjs4470 you'll have a lot more credibility, to me, if you stop including the mentions of Toby Harrah. I liked Toby. I rooted for him (once he was traded to Cleveland). But he was not among the top shortstops for the decade. Heck, he only played more than 100 games at short 5 out of the 10 years in the 70's. You can say his move to third was natural when Campenaris came to the Rangers. But even when he got traded to Cleveland, they still left him at third base...with Tom (yes, my career WAR is -3.7) Veryzer at shortstop!!

 

Also, another thing that has not been mentioned (in the Larry Bowa vs. Concepcion argument) is who was playing next to them. Not up in the middle as far as a double-play partner...but who covered the hole to their right. I would dare say that Mike Schmidt took away quite a few opportunities from Bowa that Concepcion was forced to take playing next to Pete, Tony or Denis Menke. So more opportunities on perhaps the hardest play for a shortstop to make? Maybe that translates into more errors, maybe it doesn't...I don't know.

 

All I can say is this...SINCE the HOF has elected Ozzie to be in, then there is no reason Davey shouldn't be in. (You could make the argument that even Ozzie doesn't deserve to be in, but since we can't go back in time on that...it's a moot point.)

 

I would agree that Harrah is a reach. The only reason I mentioned him is because I saw more than one source that named him the best shortstop of the decade. And after looking his numbers were better than I expected. He’s clearly a not h below Davey, Bowa, and Campaneris (who I also think is a notch below the other two).

[k'd looking]

Growing up in the late 60's ,and 70's, I loved baseball. I am 59 years old. That being said,i have always...and will always be a reds fan!!! The people who have made the funny comments about Concepcion being referred to as "e" ...a lot of balls he got to,and made bad throws on,or booted,were given errors. most ss's don't get to them!!! Official scorers were a lot tougher on their decisions back then.[Not like now,were players are given HITS on those type plays] I'm not going to get into that, but I'm going to be bias and say he belongs. Lets not forget,Concepcion started playing regularly in "72". Ozzie came along around "77-78", with San Diego. Sorry for my memory. Concepcion was great defensively , and a pretty good offensive ss. [Remember..before Ripken and Larkin] as far as other ss at the time,there were some dam good defensive ss's. Kessinger,Brinkman,Belanger,Maxvill,Bowa,Alley,Spier,Harrelson...blah,blah,blah...lol!!! but not as good offensively as Concepcion.

anyway,I think Concepion was the best from the "70''s,because he was the total package...back then!!! I think one year he even hit 16 home runs. He could steal bases also. I think he should be in...but I'm a reds fan!!! Sue me!!! ...lol

Problem is,ss's are a different breed now. They hit home runs.drive in runs. That wasn't the standard back then. A man shouldn't be penalized for playing in a time when things were different. Everything changes over time. Doesn't help he played on one of the top 5 teams in baseball history,with 4 hof'ers on it. Yes,I'm counting Pete..even though he's a jerk!!! Anyway,just one man's opinion. Hope he gets in before he dies. Later gentlemen.