Prayers of Intercession

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Catholics believe in the intercession of the saints and of the Virgin Mary's intercession. Many other Christian faiths do not, and moreover, believe it is worshiping false gods.

 

My Catholicism is something I've not ever hidden on BGP. I pray for the intercession of Mary and of various saints quite regularly.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Revelations 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

 

Why did the angel have to involve himself in the scenario if prayer can be directed straight to God?

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Zechariah 1:12-13 And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long will you not have mercy on Jerusalem, and on the cities of Juda, with which you have been angry? This is now the seventieth year. And the Lord answered the angel, that spoke in me, good words, comfortable words.

 

Why did the angel of the Lord have to ask the Lord how long it would be until He had mercy on Jerusalem and Juda? Were the Hebrews of Jerusalem and Juda not asking God themselves?

[Getslow]

I've always thought it's even more fundamental than that. If you've been in trouble and said to a friend: "Pray for me." It's the exact same thing as asking for the intercession of the saints.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Tobit 12:12 When you prayed with tears, and buried the dead, and left your dinner, and hid the dead by day in your house, and buried them by night, I offered your prayer to the Lord.

 

Tobias tells his father that he offered his prayer to the Lord. We here on BluegrassPreps ask others to offer prayers for our loved ones. Why do we ask others to pray? Does God hear our prayers differently if more than one person is praying? If we can ask our friends to pray for the same intention as we do, then why not ask the saints, or Mary, Jesus' own mother to include our prayer intention in with their own?

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

I've always thought it's even more fundamental than that. If you've been in trouble and said to a friend: "Pray for me." It's the exact same thing as asking for the intercession of the saints.

 

You beat me to the punch, my friend.

[UKMustangFan]

I've always thought it's even more fundamental than that. If you've been in trouble and said to a friend: "Pray for me." It's the exact same thing as asking for the intercession of the saints.

 

But we Catholics are "retarded" for believing that....

[mexitucky]

But we Catholics are "retarded" for believing that....

 

Silly, silly Fish Eaters we are.

[Hearsay]

Before any Holy Wars erupt, the question generally concerns fundamental differences between Protestants and Catholics when it refers to the term "saints," which most of these scripture passages contain. Catholics generally refer to "saints" as departed apostles or clergy for whom sainthood has been bestowed. Protestants refer to "saints" as all believers in Christ. This is part of the reason for controversy.

 

Getslow, there is a significant difference between "intercession" and "supplication." When you ask me to pray for you, you are asking for my "supplication," not "intercession." While there are certainly scriptural references to both (I like I Timothy 2:1), there is also unequivocal scripture that Jesus is the sole mediator between man and God. I Timothy 2:1-5. You cannot find any scripture in the Protestant Bible invoking a call to intercession by a dead person (Tobit is in the Apocrypha, not the Protestant bible, intercession forms one of the bases that the Apocryphal texts were not canonized, probably the subject of an entirely different thread).

 

Bottom line, Protestants do not believe that their is a Biblical basis for intercession by a dead person in our prayers to God.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Abraham clearly offered prayers of intercession for Sodom in Genesis 18.

[Hearsay]

Abraham clearly offered prayers of intercession for Sodom in Genesis 18.

 

See, all I read there is that he prayed directly to God for God to intercede on behalf of Sodom. I guess we just simply differ on the scope and context of what constitutes an "intercession." What differentiates that passage from "prayer?"

[Getslow]

Before any Holy Wars erupt, the question generally concerns fundamental differences between Protestants and Catholics when it refers to the term "saints," which most of these scripture passages contain. Catholics generally refer to "saints" as departed apostles or clergy for whom sainthood has been bestowed. Protestants refer to "saints" as all believers in Christ. This is part of the reason for controversy.

 

So much to delve into here. You're absolutely right in that the difference in terminology gives us problems right off the bat. The Catholic terminology alone is troublesome. It's true that among most Catholics, that term is used for those members of the Church Triumphant who have been explicitly canonized as having lived lives of heroic virtue and are held up as an example to all other believers. But canonized saints are only part of the story. It's also used to refer to the entire communion of saints representing those on Earth, those in Purgatory and those in Heaven.

 

Getslow, there is a significant difference between "intercession" and "supplication." When you ask me to pray for you, you are asking for my "supplication," not "intercession." While there are certainly scriptural references to both (I like I Timothy 2:1), there is also unequivocal scripture that Jesus is the sole mediator between man and God. I Timothy 2:1-5. You cannot find any scripture in the Protestant Bible invoking a call to intercession by a dead person (Tobit is in the Apocrypha, not the Protestant bible, intercession forms one of the bases that the Apocryphal texts were not canonized, probably the subject of an entirely different thread).

 

I'll have to double-check, but I don't believe Catholic theology draws the same distinctions regarding the word "intercession." Certainly there is a difference between the intercession of Christ, who is held as sole Mediator between God and man, and the intercession of the saints and angels, whose prayers we seek in supplication. In this way, I think the Catholic term "intercession" is used more broadly across these principals, even if it may not be as accurate in a definitional exercise.

 

Bottom line, Protestants do not believe that their is a Biblical basis for intercession by a dead person in our prayers to God.

As you know from your long experience in these matters, discussion of the Biblical basis for certain beliefs and practices between Catholics and many Protestant denominations is problematic for two reasons 1) even within the Bible itself, we have a few different books and 2) Catholics have historically used numerous extra-biblical writings as sources of revealed truth, from the Didache to the writings of the Early Fathers. In this particular discussion, Tobit and 2 Maccabees are particularly important from a Catholic perspective; neither book appears in most Protestant Bibles. These discussions have proven to be very difficult when we're not even standing at the same starting line, much less looking at the course from the same perspective.

[Michael Corleone]

All joking and needling aside, and believe me in the previous thread that's what it was on my part, I 100% respect all of your beliefs. I have many wonderful Catholic friends and once again I respect their beliefs. My feeling is, if you guys want to pray to Mary more power to you. I'm just going strait to God himself.

[spindoc]

But we Catholics are "retarded" for believing that....

Give it a rest. You're retarded for think Chapman should not be the closer.

 

As for my comment, I wish I had edited before Corleone wrangled it. It was not my intent. My normal sarcastic self not withstanding, I can't understand the whole immaculate conception deal. Had nothing to do with that.

 

I truly don't understand much at all about the Catholic faith. I understand more about the Muslim faith and the Jehovah's Witness' than I do Catholics. I fully admit that. And I'd like to be more knowledgeable about it. I've asked Rockmom for some insight on some things. I wasn't raised that way, and frankly with the Bible as the only reference I have, the way it was explained to me makes no sense to me.

[spindoc]

Before any Holy Wars erupt, the question generally concerns fundamental differences between Protestants and Catholics when it refers to the term "saints," which most of these scripture passages contain. Catholics generally refer to "saints" as departed apostles or clergy for whom sainthood has been bestowed. Protestants refer to "saints" as all believers in Christ. This is part of the reason for controversy.

 

Getslow, there is a significant difference between "intercession" and "supplication." When you ask me to pray for you, you are asking for my "supplication," not "intercession." While there are certainly scriptural references to both (I like I Timothy 2:1), there is also unequivocal scripture that Jesus is the sole mediator between man and God. I Timothy 2:1-5. You cannot find any scripture in the Protestant Bible invoking a call to intercession by a dead person (Tobit is in the Apocrypha, not the Protestant bible, intercession forms one of the bases that the Apocryphal texts were not canonized, probably the subject of an entirely different thread).

 

Bottom line, Protestants do not believe that their is a Biblical basis for intercession by a dead person in our prayers to God.

This