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Prayers of Intercession


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In regards to Intercession, this is a topic which comes from the Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox, don't forget our brothers to the East) teaching of the Communion of Saints. I won't lie, this is a topic I am a little rusty on but let me give what I do know. The teaching is that there is a spiritual unity (or communion) between the saints (those in heaven) and those of us on earth. To use vulgar everyday terms, we are all in this together. Those who have reached heaven yurn for those of us on this planet to reach heaven also and their prayers and our are both heard by God. This does not mean we should worship them which is idolatry, but mentioning them in prayer is fine and can be benficial. Unfortunately, some Catholics do think we are supposed to worship Mary and those in heaven and mistakenly do. That is a misconception the church is trying to correct.

 

As an example. I was at a fund raiser for a Pro Life organization. A speaker brought up an Italian woman who was having a tragic delivery. Doctors informed the woman that giving birth would certainly lead to hemmoraging and death and she was pressured to abort her child. The mother steadfastly refused. She decided to allow herself to die so her daughter could be born. While still conscious she prayed to Jesus for her soon to be born daughter and said to Mary that she hoped she showed a small glimmer of the courage Mary showed in accepting Jesus into her womb. She eventually lost conscious and did die. To this day her daughter (who is an adult now) is often asked to speak about this story. The story touched everyone present. Catholics and Eastern Ortodox Christians would see it as appropriate to ask this mother (who's name I cannot remember) to pray for all women considering abortion as part of their prayers to God.

 

I forgot to add. The concept of intercession has been around pretty much since the beginning also. If you go to the catacums (however you spell it) to which were discovered during renovations in Rome, archeologists believe they have located where Peter and Paul were buried due to what were found in the tombs and writings around the tombs. One common writing was "Peter and Paul, pray for us". If this had just shown up once or twice, no one would have thought much of it. Based on the numerous times it was written, it seems logical to conclude the early Christians would taught this concept by the Apostels and the other Early Church Fathers.

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I forgot to add. The concept of intercession has been around pretty much since the beginning also. If you go to the catacums (however you spell it) to which were discovered during renovations in Rome, archeologists believe they have located where Peter and Paul were buried due to what were found in the tombs and writings around the tombs. One common writing was "Peter and Paul, pray for us". If this had just shown up once or twice, no one would have thought much of it. Based on the numerous times it was written, it seems logical to conclude the early Christians would taught this concept by the Apostels and the other Early Church Fathers.
Bert, forgive my ignorance here, but for those of us not of the Catholic church or upbringing, it's seems useless to have someone who is dead to pray on our behalf. Paul addresses the churches and tells them that he prays for them. Obviously in intercession for them. He goes as far as to tell them what he prays for them. However, it's just a foreign ideal that I'd ask Paul or Peter or (insert any of those church figures that have gone to their Heavenly home) to pray on my behalf. I'd ask my BGP family to pray for me, or on behalf of my loved one. And for the most part, they are all still alive. Can you expound on where the tenet of asking for the "saints" to pray on your behalf began? And also, do you not believe that as Christians that we are all the saints of God?
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Bert, forgive my ignorance here, but for those of us not of the Catholic church or upbringing, it's seems useless to have someone who is dead to pray on our behalf. Paul addresses the churches and tells them that he prays for them. Obviously in intercession for them. He goes as far as to tell them what he prays for them. However, it's just a foreign ideal that I'd ask Paul or Peter or (insert any of those church figures that have gone to their Heavenly home) to pray on my behalf. I'd ask my BGP family to pray for me, or on behalf of my loved one. And for the most part, they are all still alive. Can you expound on where the tenet of asking for the "saints" to pray on your behalf began? And also, do you not believe that as Christians that we are all the saints of God?

 

To borrow from Anglican apologist C.S. Lewis "You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

 

I am a soul and am currently in the earthly stage of my life. This stage decides whether my next stage will be spent in the total presence of God (heaven) or the total absence of God (hell). In the manner to which you're referring, if someone is dead, it is only their earthly body that is dead - not their soul, which is the true identity.

 

We ask people who are dead (like the Virgin Mary and the canonized saints) to pray for us because we believe that they are, as souls, now in the total presence of God in heaven. They are literally closer to God, and we are asking them to pray for us.

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To borrow from Anglican apologist C.S. Lewis "You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

 

I am a soul and am currently in the earthly stage of my life. This stage decides whether my next stage will be spent in the total presence of God (heaven) or the total absence of God (hell). In the manner to which you're referring, if someone is dead, it is only their earthly body that is dead - not their soul, which is the true identity.

 

We people who are dead (like the Virgin Mary and the canonized saints) to pray for us because we believe that they are, as souls, now in the total presence of God in heaven. They are literally closer to God, and we are asking them to pray for us.

I appreciate the answer.:thumb:

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Bert, forgive my ignorance here, but for those of us not of the Catholic church or upbringing, it's seems useless to have someone who is dead to pray on our behalf. Paul addresses the churches and tells them that he prays for them. Obviously in intercession for them. He goes as far as to tell them what he prays for them. However, it's just a foreign ideal that I'd ask Paul or Peter or (insert any of those church figures that have gone to their Heavenly home) to pray on my behalf. I'd ask my BGP family to pray for me, or on behalf of my loved one. And for the most part, they are all still alive. Can you expound on where the tenet of asking for the "saints" to pray on your behalf began? And also, do you not believe that as Christians that we are all the saints of God?

 

Once again, let me qualify that my knowledge of the Catholic/Orthodox teaching of the Communion of Saints is limited but I will do what I can. I do know that Catholicism and Orthodoxy both teach prayer and worship of God does not cease once one receives salvation. If anything, once one sees the beatific vision, they are overwhelmed with God's glory and such prayer and worship would increase. Therefore, asking for their prayer for intentions is fine. I have heard a Greek Orthodox priest joke that since the saints have "front row seating in the stadium that is God's Kindgom so to speak" their prayers are the loudest so feel free to ask them to include any prayers or intentions. He said that tongue in cheek of course.

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Once again, let me qualify that my knowledge of the Catholic/Orthodox teaching of the Communion of Saints is limited but I will do what I can. I do know that Catholicism and Orthodoxy both teach prayer and worship of God does not cease once one receives salvation. If anything, once one sees the beatific vision, they are overwhelmed with God's glory and such prayer and worship would increase. Therefore, asking for their prayer for intentions is fine. I have heard a Greek Orthodox priest joke that since the saints have "front row seating in the stadium that is God's Kindgom so to speak" their prayers are the loudest so feel free to ask them to include any prayers or intentions. He said that tongue in cheek of course.

Okay, so are you to think that the saints are able to hear all of the requests just as God can?

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Okay, so are you to think that the saints are able to hear all of the requests just as God can?

 

In a manner of speaking, yes.

 

Revelations 5:6-8 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

 

The elders (saints) had ahold of our prayers somehow....so we assume that yes, they can hear our prayers.

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Okay, so are you to think that the saints are able to hear all of the requests just as God can?

 

My assumption has always been that those in heaven are aware of what is going on in this world. To the degree "just as God can?" That I don't know. I doubt it but I have never read or heard anything to that goes into that.

 

Now, as to whether those in Hell know what is going on? I'm not sure. I know Jesus mentions the rich man suffering and he begs for the angel to warn his brothers. Does that mean he is somewhat aware of what goes on in this world? I have no idea. Maybe he just knows they were making the same errors he did and assumes they still are.

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To some degree, the one thing I find that differentiates Catholics from some other Christian denominations is the acceptance of some theology for which there is little or no "proof". That is faith. Much as all faiths believe in God, without proof. Many of you will point to the Bible as proof. However, in reality it is of no more value than Harry Potter without faith. What is written is still only allegorical without faith in the existence of a God we've never seen.

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To some degree, the one thing I find that differentiates Catholics from some other Christian denominations is the acceptance of some theology for which there is little or no "proof". That is faith. Much as all faiths believe in God, without proof. Many of you will point to the Bible as proof. However, in reality it is of no more value than Harry Potter without faith. What is written is still only allegorical without faith in the existence of a God we've never seen.

 

The poet in me finds "proof" of God in the Grand Tetons rising out of the floor of Jackson Hole with the Snake River winding its way past; in my child's first words without any formal training or persuasion; and in how a grape when crushed fermets in its own mold, giving us the gift of wine. Indeed, there is "proof" all around us that did not come from chaos theory, but from God.

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The poet in me finds "proof" of God in the Grand Tetons rising out of the floor of Jackson Hole with the Snake River winding its way past; in my child's first words without any formal training or persuasion; and in how a grape when crushed fermets in its own mold, giving us the gift of wine. Indeed, there is "proof" all around us that did not come from chaos theory, but from God.

I understand your sentiments. But science can explain all of your examples. Faith ascribes these magical gifts to God.

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To some degree, the one thing I find that differentiates Catholics from some other Christian denominations is the acceptance of some theology for which there is little or no "proof". That is faith. Much as all faiths believe in God, without proof. Many of you will point to the Bible as proof. However, in reality it is of no more value than Harry Potter without faith. What is written is still only allegorical without faith in the existence of a God we've never seen.

 

True, the Bible without faith is of no value. However, faith in Harry Potter is equally as useless.

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