Dropping out of district play

[futurecoach]

4 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Using Boone as an example, if they were to pull out of district they could still play Scott and Conner if they wanted to. But them playing Cooper, Highlands and Dixie aren't games that are going to help them, at least in this cycle. This is all about having better control over your schedule and trying to build.

So for your example you are going to drop out of district because of 3 games? That’s silly IMO, so we will have to agree to disagree on that. Plus doesn’t Dixie lose a lot from last year? So I’m not sure if can put Dixie in that category with Cooper and Highlands. 
 

Also if you are still going to play Conner and Scott. Then might as well stay in district, because if you win them you are in the playoffs. Which even if you lose in the first round, making the playoffs is an achievement that would get the players more excited than literally going into the season with no hopes or playing for anything.  Dropping out of district play tells your players that you don’t think they are good enough, gives them nothing to shoot for, plus as I have mentioned I believe it would hurt numbers more than help. So will agree to disagree on this. 

[barrel]

26 minutes ago, futurecoach said:

Your numbers aren’t going to go up if you play non district. Players aren’t dumb, they would then know their own school doesn’t believe they can do well. So why even play, especially when playing for nothing at that point? Plus how do you even know if you go non district if you are then ready to play in district in two years. If your whole schedule is water down, you have no idea. 
 

It is simple you water down you non district schedule to build confidence, then you find out where you are at during district play. Dropping out of district is not going to help with much of anything and most likely will hurt the program and numbers. 

I have never seen a team hurt by going nondistrict. I have seen teams get hurt by getting skull drug by teams in n their district. There are parts of the state/schools that are aware of who is in their district. You might be surprised how many fans and players are unaware of things like who is in their district or even what class teams are in. 
 

Let’s take Boone as an example again. Let’s say they play Scott the first district game and lose. Now they know they aren’t making the playoffs and get to look forward to getting hammered by 2-3 more district opponents. Halfway through their season they know they don’t have anything to play for in some people’s eyes. 
 

If your numbers are low for your class and you have to play freshmen and sophomores on Friday night against D1 kids that isn’t helping anyone. If you’re nondistrict where you can schedule schools with similar rosters it is easier to build off of those freshmen and sophomores. Now when you return to district play they have experience and more out of season and hopefully success on the field. 
 

I know I’m not really going to change probably anyone’s opinion. I know from living it what it’s like. I also know there are a number of coaches that have similar feelings. Many believe districts need to either be structured differently or to get rid of them. Especially now with the RPI. 

[ChiefSmoke]

I've enjoyed reading the comments. 

My Dad's first season at Mercer(1974), I think they were not in district play... but back then it was different. Bottom line, they played teams like them, and won 6 games.. first winning season in school history. I think back then that was a good thing for Mercer... BUT back then playoffs were pretty remote for most programs. Only the district champ went and there may have been only 3 or 4 classes.  

Generally, I would say it is very rare that not playing in the district is a good thing. But, when you say "Never" or "Always" most of the time, you are wrong. 

After reading the comments here and on facebook, I do think the solution may be doing away with districts and seeding regions by RPI or CalPreps. That way, you are always "in" the system. But, you schedule teams that fit you. If you want in the playoffs, you better play some good teams. 

Yes, it will be tougher for the really good teams to fill a schedule. They've got the resources and support to make it work and get it done. They will be fine. It will also give them great seeding in November...which is what is most desirable for those programs to begin with. 

[futurecoach]

9 minutes ago, barrel said:

I have never seen a team hurt by going nondistrict. I have seen teams get hurt by getting skull drug by teams in n their district. There are parts of the state/schools that are aware of who is in their district. You might be surprised how many fans and players are unaware of things like who is in their district or even what class teams are in. 
 

Let’s take Boone as an example again. Let’s say they play Scott the first district game and lose. Now they know they aren’t making the playoffs and get to look forward to getting hammered by 2-3 more district opponents. Halfway through their season they know they don’t have anything to play for in some people’s eyes. 
 

If your numbers are low for your class and you have to play freshmen and sophomores on Friday night against D1 kids that isn’t helping anyone. If you’re nondistrict where you can schedule schools with similar rosters it is easier to build off of those freshmen and sophomores. Now when you return to district play they have experience and more out of season and hopefully success on the field. 
 

I know I’m not really going to change probably anyone’s opinion. I know from living it what it’s like. I also know there are a number of coaches that have similar feelings. Many believe districts need to either be structured differently or to get rid of them. Especially now with the RPI. 

As I have said in my longer post, I can probably guarantee I have lived through a lot worst experience with this than you may have gone through. 
 

Which you are right if say they lose to Scott, then yeah those last couple games may be rough. But you are wanting to go non district for maybe 2 or 3 games at most that may be too difficult? 

Which I do believe kids definitely would know if their school dropped out of district play. Kids aren’t dumb, they would know that their school also doesn’t think they can compete, so why stay there? Why play? 

Football is a long year when you count off season conditioning, then all those practices just to play at minimum 10 games. Most kids aren’t going to be willing to go through all that, when there is literally nothing at the end of the tunnel to where you can accomplish something if you win. Water down your schedule to 7 and 3 and your reward is nothing cause your season is over. I don’t see that getting kids out. 
 

I don’t see why people think should jump out of district play because of maybe 2 district games that may be unwinnable, 3 at most. That leaves 7 other games, 5 of them being non district games usually where you can water down your schedule to try to stack wins. 
 

As you said though neither of us is going to change the other opinion on this. I do enjoy hearing the other viewpoint though, and just have to agree to disagree. 

[futurecoach]

4 minutes ago, ChiefSmoke said:

I've enjoyed reading the comments. 

My Dad's first season at Mercer(1974), I think they were not in district play... but back then it was different. Bottom line, they played teams like them, and won 6 games.. first winning season in school history. I think back then that was a good thing for Mercer... BUT back then playoffs were pretty remote for most programs. Only the district champ went and there may have been only 3 or 4 classes.  

Generally, I would say it is very rare that not playing in the district is a good thing. But, when you say "Never" or "Always" most of the time, you are wrong. 

After reading the comments here and on facebook, I do think the solution may be doing away with districts and seeding regions by RPI or CalPreps. That way, you are always "in" the system. But, you schedule teams that fit you. If you want in the playoffs, you better play some good teams. 

Yes, it will be tougher for the really good teams to fill a schedule. They've got the resources and support to make it work and get it done. They will be fine. It will also give them great seeding in November...which is what is most desirable for those programs to begin with. 

Now this I would be fine with. If want to do away with districts all together and use just Calpreps or RPI, then that’s fine. I just don’t agree in most cases with dropping out of district play. 

[rjs4470]

1 hour ago, futurecoach said:

As I have said in my longer post, I can probably guarantee I have lived through a lot worst experience with this than you may have gone through. 
 

Which you are right if say they lose to Scott, then yeah those last couple games may be rough. But you are wanting to go non district for maybe 2 or 3 games at most that may be too difficult? 

Which I do believe kids definitely would know if their school dropped out of district play. Kids aren’t dumb, they would know that their school also doesn’t think they can compete, so why stay there? Why play? 

Football is a long year when you count off season conditioning, then all those practices just to play at minimum 10 games. Most kids aren’t going to be willing to go through all that, when there is literally nothing at the end of the tunnel to where you can accomplish something if you win. Water down your schedule to 7 and 3 and your reward is nothing cause your season is over. I don’t see that getting kids out. 
 

I don’t see why people think should jump out of district play because of maybe 2 district games that may be unwinnable, 3 at most. That leaves 7 other games, 5 of them being non district games usually where you can water down your schedule to try to stack wins. 
 

As you said though neither of us is going to change the other opinion on this. I do enjoy hearing the other viewpoint though, and just have to agree to disagree. 

I completely get it. While I'm all for teams opting to drop out if they wish, it would be tough for me to make that call for my team. Here's the thing.....like you said kids aren't dumb. And just like they recognize that dropping out of district is a sign that your leaders don't think you can compete, they also are just as likely to have recognized that well before the decision to drop out was made. Most kids already know if their team is "good enough" to have something to play for after game 10 or 11 well before the season starts. And those that don't sure as heck mostly know it by mid season. And guess what....most stick around anyway. 99% of players will never ever sniff a state title, many will never experience multiple playoff wins, and many will never win a playoff game....in essence they are from the get go starting off with nothing to play for.  And they still come out and stick around. Playing a non district schedule probably won't get any of the teams that opt to do so to even a .500 season. But pulling a couple (or more) teams off your schedule that will curb stomp you will make the season more enjoyable and safer. And they in reality won't be missing any opportunities or playing for any less. Most high school kids aren't playing for state titles, playoff wins or a college scholarship because for some no matter how hard the work, how hard they try or how much they want it, it's just not going to happen.  They are playing because the enjoy the game and everything that comes with it. If guys didn't play because they didn't think they had a chance to win, there would be an awful lot of schools that wouldn't have football teams.

[futurecoach]

9 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

I completely get it. While I'm all for teams opting to drop out if they wish, it would be tough for me to make that call for my team. Here's the thing.....like you said kids aren't dumb. And just like they recognize that dropping out of district is a sign that your leaders don't think you can compete, they also are just as likely to have recognized that well before the decision to drop out was made. Most kids already know if their team is "good enough" to have something to play for after game 10 or 11 well before the season starts. And those that don't sure as heck mostly know it by mid season. And guess what....most stick around anyway. 99% of players will never ever sniff a state title, many will never experience multiple playoff wins, and many will never win a playoff game....in essence they are from the get go starting off with nothing to play for.  And they still come out and stick around. Playing a non district schedule probably won't get any of the teams that opt to do so to even a .500 season. But pulling a couple (or more) teams off your schedule that will curb stomp you will make the season more enjoyable and safer. And they in reality won't be missing any opportunities or playing for any less. Most high school kids aren't playing for state titles, playoff wins or a college scholarship because for some no matter how hard the work, how hard they try or how much they want it, it's just not going to happen.  They are playing because the enjoy the game and everything that comes with it. If guys didn't play because they didn't think they had a chance to win, there would be an awful lot of schools that wouldn't have football teams.

Kids play football and sports in general because they enjoy the competition for it and trying to play for something. Even if that something is to win a district game for first time in 5 years, or making the playoffs for first time in years. Those are accomplishments that even players can look back on and think they did something. Rather than a season of playing for literally nothing, where literally can’t even be optimistic or dream about having a chance for anything more cause you are done after game 10 no matter what if you drop out. 
 

Now I could be on board though with no districts at all, and just using RPI or Calpreps to determine who makes the playoffs. However, while things are the way they are. Then I do think the the majority of cases that a team dropping out of district play doesn’t help things at all. 

[rjs4470]

4 minutes ago, futurecoach said:

Kids play football and sports in general because they enjoy the competition for it and trying to play for something. Even if that something is to win a district game for first time in 5 years, or making the playoffs for first time in years. Those are accomplishments that even players can look back on and think they did something. Rather than a season of playing for literally nothing, where literally can’t even be optimistic or dream about having a chance for anything more cause you are done after game 10 no matter what if you drop out. 
 

Now I could be on board though with no districts at all, and just using RPI or Calpreps to determine who makes the playoffs. However, while things are the way they are. Then I do think the the majority of cases that a team dropping out of district play doesn’t help things at all. 

You are absolutely right that kids play sports for "something". And those somethings could be anything and as I mentioned, for most kids it isn't about wins, playoffs, etc. They aren't limited to the things you mentioned that are centered around wins (although many are). I come from a large school (almost 3k students) and we had a roster of nearly 100 guys, some of which didn't get more than a handful of snaps in 4 years. Their success was measured way differently than the starters. It's up to the HC and his staff to figure out what those "somethings" are and put their kids and team in the best possible position to accomplish those goals. And for some teams, pulling out of district play may be exactly what does that. Just because you won't get a chance to get a district win or make the playoffs, doesn't mean that you are playing that season for nothing. There are far more "somethings" in the game of football than just district wins, playoffs, or state titles. For many, that "something" is just the love of the game and your teammates.

[futurecoach]

Just now, rjs4470 said:

You are absolutely right that kids play sports for "something". And those somethings could be anything and as I mentioned, for most kids it isn't about wins, playoffs, etc. They aren't limited to the things you mentioned that are centered around wins (although many are). I come from a large school (almost 3k students) and we had a roster of nearly 100 guys, some of which didn't get more than a handful of snaps in 4 years. Their success was measured way differently than the starters. It's up to the HC and his staff to figure out what those "somethings" are and put their kids and team in the best possible position to accomplish those goals. And for some teams, pulling out of district play may be exactly what does that. Just because you won't get a chance to get a district win or make the playoffs, doesn't mean that you are playing that season for nothing. There are far more "somethings" in the game of football than just district wins, playoffs, or state titles. For many, that "something" is just the love of the game and your teammates.

As I said before this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. IMO I think you would see less players play, and end up hurting the program more than helping by dropping out. I believe more kids would view it as nothing to play for. Plus future kids and even parents of kids would see that school not even playing in districts and playing for nothing and would send their kids elsewhere. I just don’t think there is much positive to come out of it at all. But once again though, neither one of us is obviously going to change the other one’s opinion on this lol. 

[Voice of Reason]

Here is a different angle on this discussion. Why do teams only talk about dropping out of district in football? Why not baseball, basketball, soccer, volleyball, etc? 

There are schools that have no chance at a district title and also lose most of their games in those sports also. Why do they stay in district play in those sports? 

[barrel]

27 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Here is a different angle on this discussion. Why do teams only talk about dropping out of district in football? Why not baseball, basketball, soccer, volleyball, etc? 

There are schools that have no chance at a district title and also lose most of their games in those sports also. Why do they stay in district play in those sports? 

Good question. One I believe is the physical nature of the sport. Football is a sport where you really can’t avoid physical contact. I would guess that football has a higher likelihood of injury between mismatched opponents. 
 

A second guess would be the amount of games. You only get 10 and 3-5 of those you’re forced to play. I believe other sports have more flexibility in their schedules to play similar teams. Also for possibly the same reasons schools will (at often can) teams they would never play in football. Pendleton Co has struggled in football but their other sports options are more open. Harrison Co when you compare baseball and football. 
 

As far as kids going other places to play goes that isn’t as much of an option for many. Kids will talk about going places also if they are getting curb stomped in district play. 

[rjs4470]

9 hours ago, futurecoach said:

As I said before this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. IMO I think you would see less players play, and end up hurting the program more than helping by dropping out. I believe more kids would view it as nothing to play for. Plus future kids and even parents of kids would see that school not even playing in districts and playing for nothing and would send their kids elsewhere. I just don’t think there is much positive to come out of it at all. But once again though, neither one of us is obviously going to change the other one’s opinion on this lol. 

Like I said, it's not the right decision for every team that is struggling. And the things you mention like kids leaving for other schools or choosing not to play, are already happening to those teams. You said it before...kids and parents aren't stupid. The teams that are or would be considering this option already are struggling to find something to play for (at least how you define "something to play for") 

[Calico Jack]

I posted this on 2/22/24 when in the 25/26 Realignment thread.

Completely do away with districts. Ohio has classes, but no districts and still have old school conferences. Let programs schedule how they see fit for what's best for them and their program. If you think you have a legitimate shot to make a run? Schedule tougher. If you have no business going to the playoffs outside of maybe getting past the first round (in the current set up)? Schedule lighter.

    The fact of the matter is, there are only eight teams at the most each year, in every class that have a legit chance at winning the whole thing as is and if we are being completely honest with ourselves, it's more like half of that, or yes, even less).

    Either way, do away with districts. Using the '25 calendar:

    
        7/28- 1st Day of Practice (here is a shocker....that's also about the time that most all college levels begin their practices. "What? (not you @barrel, but those gasping at the first thought of this) you mean wait until then like they do?" (I know. I should be fit for a straight jacket with that crazy thought).
     
        9/5- Week 1- Labor Day Weekend- (like 95% of the entire college football world & now I'm really starting to sound like some loony tune)
     
        9/12- Week 2 (Guess who doesn't even start until this week? The highest playing level of the sport in the entire world. See, I'm really talking out of my skull now. Blasphemy, I know.)
     
        9/19- Week 3
        9/26- Week 4
        10/3- Week 5
        10/10- Week 6
        10/17- Week 7
        10/24- Week 9
        10/31- Week 10
        11/7- Week 11
        11/14- Week 12
        11/21- Round 1/Region Finals & for those that didn't make the playoffs? Let's say teams 9-16 based off RPI, CalPreps, whatever computer system, etc)? Those 8 for each class get to play in a "bowl" game.
     
        11/28- Round 2/Semis
     
        12/5-12/6- State Finals (and, before anybody starts talking about the State Finals needing to be on Thanksgiving Weekend as if that happened last year or recent memory? It's been since the late 80's that they stopped being played then, some 35 years ago or thereabouts)
     

    By doing this?

    1) Even those that don't make the playoffs get 11 games, as most all do now & those in 5 or 6 team districts that don't make it in the current set up would get one more than they do now.

    2) The "Y'all have a good squad, but you aren't winning the thing" get 12 games, which, going off the current set up is where the majority of their season(s) end as is.

    3) The game becomes (wait for it, more crazy talk coming here) the fall sport it was intended to be, and for some odd reason(s), the way the collegiate levels and NFL have always chose to play it.

    4) More kids will come out (start date).

    5) Programs will also able to fill a full staff + less head coaching turnover due to not losing all of their sanity (start date + deep down knowing they aren't taking an '88 Dotson, no matter how much time, work and effort you put into it, to the Dayton 500).
 

[New Colonel]

Great conversation and I see it both ways.

 

But let's be completely honest, making the playoffs in KY isn't difficult, and if that's your crowning achievement as a football program, you have HUGE issues and dropping out of district play would definitely be beneficial as getting absolutely curb-stomped by a top tier team in round 1 isn't going to help your program in any way. 

[futurecoach]

1 hour ago, New Colonel said:

Great conversation and I see it both ways.

 

But let's be completely honest, making the playoffs in KY isn't difficult, and if that's your crowning achievement as a football program, you have HUGE issues and dropping out of district play would definitely be beneficial as getting absolutely curb-stomped by a top tier team in round 1 isn't going to help your program in any way. 

If you are a program that hasn’t won a district game in years and hasn’t been to the playoffs in years. Simply making the playoffs even with losing in the first round can help build the program and show making strides in the program and also help then in getting numbers back up.