Iraq

[Habib]

To start off with, whatever reasons, motives, or whatever you want to call it that got us into Iraq, the fact is that we are there. Let's put the Republican and Democrat strategies and positions aside and debate what the best possible strategy for Iraq is.

 

My opinion:

I think (actually I really just agree with a certain Islamic scholar and I am reiterating his views) that 9/11 was not only an attack against the United States but also an attempt to lure us into an overcompensating retaliation in the Middle East. This retaliation would polarize much of the Muslim population, who weren't involved with 9/11 and who did not condone it, into despising America and Israel. This would give credence to Bin Laden's version of Islam. Unfortunately for him, Afghanistan was well supported in the Muslim community and our work at rooting out the Taliban went fairly well.

However, things in Iraq are not going so smoothly and it is becoming the front in the war of ideologies over there. So essentially, the war has descended into a "hey, look at the Americans, we were right," type thing for Bin Laden and his followers.

Next, I feel (this is my own opinion now) that the Iraqis have to want their own government. I think some of them do, but there is a lot of fighting from other Muslims trying to stop them from doing this. Muslims are killing Muslims more than they are killing our troops. Ultimately, the Iraqis are going to have to get motivated, use our help, and form their own government for this to work. I don't think an increase in troops is going to solve anything.

So Americans are dying needlessly because the Iraqis aren't going to do anything, why don't we just leave? In my opinion, if we pull out, the country will descend into utter chaos, beyond what it is now. We will most likely see a much bloodier and murderous war than there is now. Iraq will then become a breeding ground for radical Islam like a vacuum sucking in more and more. It is untelling what would come of that. Not to mention what Iran will gain by potentially annexing the Shia part of Iraq.

 

Now, I don't have a solution, I have no idea, and I don't even know if my opinions above are anywhere near accurate. So let's see what you guys think...

[Diamond Dandy]

I think you are right on point. They have to want and fight for their freedom.

We gave them plenty of time, spent plenty of money and lost enough soliders.

In my opinion the only thing we can do now is:

 

1-send the troops home that are on their 4th and 5th tours, they have the most invested in this war.

 

2-pull back our troops to Northern Iraq, away fron curcrek(SP) and the major northern cities so no Iraqi's or Kerd's are near our facilities, other then trainees. 75,000 troops should be enough to provide continued training for the next year.

 

3-now that our troops are out of the crossfire, they can decide if they want to continue to fight each other, or work out a peace agreement, their choice.

 

4-use our air force to prevent an attack on our isolated facilities, easy enough, we can see them comming for miles away.

 

5-use our air force in an offensive manner if outside forces attempt to occupy

the territories we have left.

 

6-close the training facility in one year....turn out the light, the party is over.

 

7-FINISH THE JOB IN AFGANISTAN

[All Tell]

I think we have to committ enough troops to finish the job and we have to stay for as long as it takes to do so. WW2 has been over for 60 years and we still have troops in Germany. Agree or not with going into Iraq we have done it. To leave without finishing would be criminal.

[Hatz]

I think we have to committ enough troops to finish the job and we have to stay for as long as it takes to do so. WW2 has been over for 60 years and we still have troops in Germany. Agree or not with going into Iraq we have done it. To leave without finishing would be criminal.

 

 

I don't think the two scenarios are comparable at all. We have not faced any kind of German insurgency in most of those 60 years.

 

Another problem with comparing the two is the different climates. Our continuing presence was there to keep East Germany and USSR from conquering West Germany. Neither of those sides attempted anything because of the Mutually Assured Destruction scenario.

 

In Iraq we do not have a MAD principle. We aren't fighting organized armies from a legal government who would face annihlation. The result is that they are harder to find and bolder in their action.

 

To compare German occupation vs. Iraqi is the ultimate in apples and oranges.

[Hatz]

To start off with, whatever reasons, motives, or whatever you want to call it that got us into Iraq, the fact is that we are there. Let's put the Republican and Democrat strategies and positions aside and debate what the best possible strategy for Iraq is.

 

My opinion:

I think (actually I really just agree with a certain Islamic scholar and I am reiterating his views) that 9/11 was not only an attack against the United States but also an attempt to lure us into an overcompensating retaliation in the Middle East. This retaliation would polarize much of the Muslim population, who weren't involved with 9/11 and who did not condone it, into despising America and Israel. This would give credence to Bin Laden's version of Islam. Unfortunately for him, Afghanistan was well supported in the Muslim community and our work at rooting out the Taliban went fairly well.

However, things in Iraq are not going so smoothly and it is becoming the front in the war of ideologies over there. So essentially, the war has descended into a "hey, look at the Americans, we were right," type thing for Bin Laden and his followers.

Next, I feel (this is my own opinion now) that the Iraqis have to want their own government. I think some of them do, but there is a lot of fighting from other Muslims trying to stop them from doing this. Muslims are killing Muslims more than they are killing our troops. Ultimately, the Iraqis are going to have to get motivated, use our help, and form their own government for this to work. I don't think an increase in troops is going to solve anything.

So Americans are dying needlessly because the Iraqis aren't going to do anything, why don't we just leave? In my opinion, if we pull out, the country will descend into utter chaos, beyond what it is now. We will most likely see a much bloodier and murderous war than there is now. Iraq will then become a breeding ground for radical Islam like a vacuum sucking in more and more. It is untelling what would come of that. Not to mention what Iran will gain by potentially annexing the Shia part of Iraq.

 

Now, I don't have a solution, I have no idea, and I don't even know if my opinions above are anywhere near accurate. So let's see what you guys think...

 

 

One of the things that I wonder about is if we did a total withdrawl from Iraq you point out the chaos and murder that would occur. You are right.

 

But here's a thought. If we withdrawl our presence what is left is Muslim killing Muslim. That is totally against the Koran. They will still kill it each other but the "moral ground" many have stood on by killing the "infidel" will be removed. We can concentrate on Afghanistan and keeping our presence nearby there.

 

You have raised the important issues Habib. Our invasion of Iraq cost us any support we may have had with some Islamic groups and made the radical Muslims appear to be right in their vilification of the US.

 

I know it's more complicated than I've presented but what is the worst and best case scenarios if we just leave Iraq?

[H]

I think we have to committ enough troops to finish the job and we have to stay for as long as it takes to do so. WW2 has been over for 60 years and we still have troops in Germany. Agree or not with going into Iraq we have done it. To leave without finishing would be criminal.

 

It's becoming all too clear that the job may not be finishable, no matter how long we stay or how many troops we send. We missed the opportunity to stabilize the country three years ago when we allowed a lawless transition to post-Saddam rule. Now we need to find a way out that minimizes the negative consequences. The comparison to our post war occupation of Germany or Japan is simply not relevant.

[IAmAFan]

If we stay we have NOTHING TO GAIN!!!!!! Yet if we stay we have plenty more to lose. This is not a war on terror.

[Habib]

But here's a thought. If we withdrawl our presence what is left is Muslim killing Muslim. That is totally against the Koran. They will still kill it each other but the "moral ground" many have stood on by killing the "infidel" will be removed. We can concentrate on Afghanistan and keeping our presence nearby there.

 

I don't necessarily think that Muslims killing Muslims is totally against the belief of Muslims. They consider Muslims who do not follow their version of Islam to be something far worse than infidels...hypocrites...and I think they will continue to fight tooth and nail.

 

If we stay we have NOTHING TO GAIN!!!!!! Yet if we stay we have plenty more to lose. This is not a war on terror.

 

I agree with you in that going into Iraq was not a part of the war on terror. But, I disagree that we have nothing to lose by leaving. In my opinion if we leave we will be back in the Middle East again, in another war most likely caused by an unstable Iraq and I feel the stakes will be much higher.

 

I don't know, hopefully I am wrong.

[AHSPanther23]

To start off with, whatever reasons, motives, or whatever you want to call it that got us into Iraq, the fact is that we are there. Let's put the Republican and Democrat strategies and positions aside and debate what the best possible strategy for Iraq is.

 

My opinion:

I think (actually I really just agree with a certain Islamic scholar and I am reiterating his views) that 9/11 was not only an attack against the United States but also an attempt to lure us into an overcompensating retaliation in the Middle East. This retaliation would polarize much of the Muslim population, who weren't involved with 9/11 and who did not condone it, into despising America and Israel. This would give credence to Bin Laden's version of Islam. Unfortunately for him, Afghanistan was well supported in the Muslim community and our work at rooting out the Taliban went fairly well.

However, things in Iraq are not going so smoothly and it is becoming the front in the war of ideologies over there. So essentially, the war has descended into a "hey, look at the Americans, we were right," type thing for Bin Laden and his followers.

Next, I feel (this is my own opinion now) that the Iraqis have to want their own government. I think some of them do, but there is a lot of fighting from other Muslims trying to stop them from doing this. Muslims are killing Muslims more than they are killing our troops. Ultimately, the Iraqis are going to have to get motivated, use our help, and form their own government for this to work. I don't think an increase in troops is going to solve anything.

So Americans are dying needlessly because the Iraqis aren't going to do anything, why don't we just leave? In my opinion, if we pull out, the country will descend into utter chaos, beyond what it is now. We will most likely see a much bloodier and murderous war than there is now. Iraq will then become a breeding ground for radical Islam like a vacuum sucking in more and more. It is untelling what would come of that. Not to mention what Iran will gain by potentially annexing the Shia part of Iraq.

 

Now, I don't have a solution, I have no idea, and I don't even know if my opinions above are anywhere near accurate. So let's see what you guys think...

 

My teacher stated the area where Isreal, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq were drawn out after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) in World War I. He said that they just drew lines on the map and did not relize that there were three different ethnic peoples living in Iraq.

Of course like many others I believed the Iraq War was justifiable. Hussein had to be stopped because he had WMD, but when we found out that there were none it went down hill rather quickly. Sad to say that this war has somewhat became of Vietnam during the Vietname War (I hate to say this because I do not want to offend veterans).

I think we should pull out and let them defend for themselves. If they can not pull their own weight then they may destroy themselves. If they save themselves somehow, then let them be. If possible the UN should try to redraw Iraq and let the Kurds, Shi'ites, and Sunis have their own country (The Shi'ites may merge with Iran, LET THEM BE) and help the new nations become econimically able to compete in a world market.

I know the ideas sound stupid because there are many better solutions but one part is true. The Five Powers did just draw lines dividing the land up. "Lets run a line here by Perisa and call it Iraq, draw a line south of Turkey and run a line here and we will call it Syria. Blah Blah Blah"

Here it discusses about what the Five Powers did to the Ottoman Empire as a consequence of being in WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

[AHSPanther23]

If we stay we have NOTHING TO GAIN!!!!!! Yet if we stay we have plenty more to lose. This is not a war on terror.

Actually it is, it is a terror on our economy, our wallets, our children's futures, and even our location as a world power.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to the 1800's or to the 1920's-1940's when we were isolated from everyone else and we did not have to stick our nose in other people's business. That is why we are so unliked, because we stick our nose in other's affairs instead of our own. Right now our allies are like, France, Great Britain, and I think Russia. In the next few years our allies may be Germany, India, and China. This is because even though our economy is large and can support something like this, sadly it hurts our allies who are helping us on a cause(Not really).

With the Democrats Congressional victories this year, I hope that they do something to end this war and get us liked again. It is funny that with our large economy and accessibility to almost any resource on the planet, we can not provide:

 

Free Health Care (Norway and many of the Scandanavian Countries have free medical care and it is all paid by the government SWEET )

 

Free Prescriptions (Canada is an example that offers this type of Medical Needs and they have litterally 1/15th of our population, which also means 1/15 of the pay is going into these types of Canadian programs)

 

Better Education (Countries such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Denmark are beating us in this field. 20 yrs ago we were #1, and now we dropped a good bit. Instead of bringing in useless things suchs as KERA and NCLB which force schools to better but do not reward them for their success.)(I say we should look to the past for our future in this field)

 

Army size (We have a large army because we supposedly "need" it. During the Cold War we defeated the Soviet Union (USSR) by building our army larger and larger because we could support it. Whereas the USSR could not because of its Communist beliefs in the economy and government)

 

It is funny that how we can not provide these things for our own people, the smaller countries can. Not being envious, but why can we not do that and keep our noses out of other's businesses. If we do that, like my mom said, when you stop butting into other's business and start worrying about your own business then you will realize you have a lot to deal with.

[Hard Rock Fan]

Actually it is, it is a terror on our economy, our wallets, our children's futures, and even our location as a world power.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to the 1800's or to the 1920's-1940's when we were isolated from everyone else and we did not have to stick our nose in other people's business. That is why we are so unliked, because we stick our nose in other's affairs instead of our own. Right now our allies are like, France, Great Britain, and I think Russia. In the next few years our allies may be Germany, India, and China. This is because even though our economy is large and can support something like this, sadly it hurts our allies who are helping us on a cause(Not really).

With the Democrats Congressional victories this year, I hope that they do something to end this war and get us liked again. It is funny that with our large economy and accessibility to almost any resource on the planet, we can not provide:

 

Free Health Care (Norway and many of the Scandanavian Countries have free medical care and it is all paid by the government SWEET )

 

Free Prescriptions (Canada is an example that offers this type of Medical Needs and they have litterally 1/15th of our population, which also means 1/15 of the pay is going into these types of Canadian programs)

 

Better Education (Countries such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Denmark are beating us in this field. 20 yrs ago we were #1, and now we dropped a good bit. Instead of bringing in useless things suchs as KERA and NCLB which force schools to better but do not reward them for their success.)(I say we should look to the past for our future in this field)

 

Army size (We have a large army because we supposedly "need" it. During the Cold War we defeated the Soviet Union (USSR) by building our army larger and larger because we could support it. Whereas the USSR could not because of its Communist beliefs in the economy and government)

 

It is funny that how we can not provide these things for our own people, the smaller countries can. Not being envious, but why can we not do that and keep our noses out of other's businesses. If we do that, like my mom said, when you stop butting into other's business and start worrying about your own business then you will realize you have a lot to deal with.

 

I don't really agree with what you said. I'm not a fan of war in general. I do support this war though. And the reason is this: my theory is that if you don't like the war, that's probably because you didn't live in Iraq and have to deal with Hussein. Show me somebody that says he wasn't a horrible person that tortured his people and didn't need to be taken out of power, and I'll show you somebody that probably should be in the crazy house.

 

We have to stick out noses in other people's business because that's what we've been doing for almost as long as the country has been around. In the past, countries have looked to us to help them. I feel that we are helping the citizens of Iraq by freeing them. Who doesn't want to be free? If your freedom was taken away, you'd be crying for somebody to come and help us. It is unfortunate that some soldiers are dying over there. But I haven't heard but maybe one or two that say we shouldn't be there.

 

The "free" health care and prescriptions that you talked about in other countries, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't think that I am, that stuff is paid for by the government, as you said. However, where do you think the government gets the money from??? Higher taxes. So sure, we could have the government pay that stuff here, but just as soon as they raise taxes to pay for it, everybody will complain about having to pay them. So then they do away with the free stuff and people will complain because we don't have it. Of course I'd like to have free prescriptions and all that. But I enjoy getting 2/3 of my paycheck with 1/3 going to taxes as opposed to getting 1/3 and 2/3 for taxes.

 

You mentioned you hope the Democrats end the war and get us liked again. I would like to be liked. But it's not going to happen, even if the war ended. We weren't liked before the war. Why do you think 9/11 happened? We weren't in the war then. But this is not a popularity contest. Things need to be done to make the world a better place and I applaud President Bush for having the courage to at least attempt it. Maybe he's made some bad choices, but at least he was trying. Which is more than I can say for our last president.

[Diamond Dandy]

I don't really agree with what you said. I'm not a fan of war in general. I do support this war though. And the reason is this: my theory is that if you don't like the war, that's probably because you didn't live in Iraq and have to deal with Hussein. Show me somebody that says he wasn't a horrible person that tortured his people and didn't need to be taken out of power, and I'll show you somebody that probably should be in the crazy house.

 

We have to stick out noses in other people's business because that's what we've been doing for almost as long as the country has been around. In the past, countries have looked to us to help them. I feel that we are helping the citizens of Iraq by freeing them. Who doesn't want to be free? If your freedom was taken away, you'd be crying for somebody to come and help us. It is unfortunate that some soldiers are dying over there. But I haven't heard but maybe one or two that say we shouldn't be there.

 

The "free" health care and prescriptions that you talked about in other countries, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't think that I am, that stuff is paid for by the government, as you said. However, where do you think the government gets the money from??? Higher taxes. So sure, we could have the government pay that stuff here, but just as soon as they raise taxes to pay for it, everybody will complain about having to pay them. So then they do away with the free stuff and people will complain because we don't have it. Of course I'd like to have free prescriptions and all that. But I enjoy getting 2/3 of my paycheck with 1/3 going to taxes as opposed to getting 1/3 and 2/3 for taxes.

 

You mentioned you hope the Democrats end the war and get us liked again. I would like to be liked. But it's not going to happen, even if the war ended. We weren't liked before the war. Why do you think 9/11 happened? We weren't in the war then. But this is not a popularity contest. Things need to be done to make the world a better place and I applaud President Bush for having the courage to at least attempt it. Maybe he's made some bad choices, but at least he was trying. Which is more than I can say for our last president.

 

That's fine that you feel the iraqi's need to be free, do you feel the same way about the African countries, the North Koreans and all other opressed people. Should we invade those countries next.

And keep in mind, we were not told, and Congress did not vote to invade Iraq to "free the people". We were sold on weapons of mass destruction, and there were none.

[AHSPanther23]

That's fine that you feel the iraqi's need to be free, do you feel the same way about the African countries, the North Koreans and all other opressed people. Should we invade those countries next.

And keep in mind, we were not told, and Congress did not vote to invade Iraq to "free the people". We were sold on weapons of mass destruction, and there were none.

This is true, but Hard Rock Fan does have a good opinion on the Medicare-Tax thing.

Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came... Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease.

 

Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes.

 

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. -Abraham Lincoln

[94 Camel]

That's fine that you feel the iraqi's need to be free, do you feel the same way about the African countries, the North Koreans and all other opressed people. Should we invade those countries next.

And keep in mind, we were not told, and Congress did not vote to invade Iraq to "free the people". We were sold on weapons of mass destruction, and there were none.

No, I believe that we have the right of "might" to take care of our threats. This job will be finished when their econmic source, othewise their oil, is controlled by U.S. friendly forces within their nation. We should enforce trade with the U.S. to pay off their war dept, and then our mission should be to keep their economic resources out of unfriendly hands forever. This may consist of a U.S. presence in the area forever. That is how we became the world's premier superpower, and that is how we will remain so. We are there, let's take some benefit from the situation. The accusation has been that this war was about oil all along, lets not be afraid to go ahead and make that come to pass.

[Diamond Dandy]

No, I believe that we have the right of "might" to take care of our threats. This job will be finished when their econmic source, othewise their oil, is controlled by U.S. friendly forces within their nation. We should enforce trade with the U.S. to pay off their war dept, and then our mission should be to keep their economic resources out of unfriendly hands forever. This may consist of a U.S. presence in the area forever. That is how we became the world's premier superpower, and that is how we will remain so. We are there, let's take some benefit from the situation. The accusation has been that this war was about oil all along, lets not be afraid to go ahead and make that come to pass.

 

Don't you think that by taking the 350 Billion that we have spent on the war in Iraq could have been better used to develop alternate fuel sources, replentiful fuel sources in America, creating jobs and controlling our own destiny. Is it Brazile that is 100% oil free? So it can be done, if your countries leaders were not OIL MEN.