Update on the KDE BOE meeting. Webcast of the meeting available

[Gunner11]

I watched the whole thing. Here are my thoughts:

 

1. Thank you LBBC for the link.

2. The KHSAA came off as looking absolutely inept. I think there are likely some personnel changes in order there before the year is out.

3. Noone wants to take the lead on this. I am disappointed that the BOE did not have better grasp of the legal procedural requirements before this meeting. Perhaps it is a good thing that new blood is getting in there, maybe there will be some concise leadership.

4. I believe that the issue is going to die, or will mold itself into a discussion of Bylaw 10 and how to properly investigate/prosecute/punish recruiting violations.

 

Otherwise, Mr. Sears made no sense to me and only further strengthened my belief that we are attempting to pass laws based upon perception and unrealistic thoughts of "fairness," rather than upon fact and acting in the best interest of children/families.

 

I agree with points 1, 2, and 3. I do not believe that it will die though. I think that the BOE was happy that the procedural issue was there, so they have an excuse not to act. My reasoning for this thought is that one member of the BOE spelled it out, saying that if you come back to us asking us to split the championships we are not going to do it because we don't think it is in the best interest of the state(no matter what the membership of the KHSAA votes) So minus the procedural delay today, had the KHSAA membership had voted the same way they did on prop 20 on the three task force proposals, the BOE IMO would have done the same thing as before and sent it back to the KHSAA to come up with a "better" solution. Although having said that, I think the BOE is in the right mindset of keeping the best interests of the kids number one(which they should be, that is their job). There are inequities, but none that require such drastic measures as being proposed IMO. I agree that bylaw 10 needs to be more aggressively policed, but as stated, it is very difficult to prove.

[rockmom]

I watched the whole thing. Here are my thoughts:

 

1. Thank you LBBC for the link.

2. The KHSAA came off as looking absolutely inept. I think there are likely some personnel changes in order there before the year is out.

3. Noone wants to take the lead on this. I am disappointed that the BOE did not have better grasp of the legal procedural requirements before this meeting. Perhaps it is a good thing that new blood is getting in there, maybe there will be some concise leadership.

4. I believe that the issue is going to die, or will mold itself into a discussion of Bylaw 10 and how to properly investigate/prosecute/punish recruiting violations.

 

Otherwise, Mr. Sears made no sense to me and only further strengthened my belief that we are attempting to pass laws based upon perception and unrealistic thoughts of "fairness," rather than upon fact and acting in the best interest of children/families.

 

I thought that Mr. Sears speech was probably damaging in it's content. He completely spoke from an obviously biased perspective, speaking of athletes, and speaking of districts from which public schools draw their students, versus private schools.

 

I think he missed an opportunity to appear objective, by recognizing that although Private schools draw from both public and private middle schools, the same applies for public schools. Kids transfer both ways.

 

The part I think tripped him up the worst was his affirmation that only the (sic) good athletes made a difference. He came off looking like the only concern of the public schools was that private schools may be receiving more than what he considers a fair proportion of difference makers.

 

Even when pressed by the BOE representatives (I have no idea who was speaking), he clung to that as a worthy argument.

[Trinity alum]

After reading proposal 1, which relates to financial aid, I am more convinced than ever that this stuff needs to be stopped. Take a look at proposal 1 as it relates to MERIT based financial aid. It limits bothe the number of students that can receive merit based aid and limits the amount of merit based aid. That makes no sense. First, why is it the business of the KHSAA to limit merit based aid in any way, shape or form.. merit based aid is based on the objective results of a test. As an example, one form of merit based aid might say that a school will give a scholaship to the to 20 scores on the placement test. Why should that be limited by the KHSAA? Proposal 1 would limit the number of students that could receive merit based financial aid to the greater of 5 students or 5 percent of the student body. It would also limit the amount of merit based aid to 25 percent of the tuition. This is way off base. If the KHSAA and its membership won't put astop to this it is time for the legislature to step in and restore sanity.

[Gunner11]

I thought that Mr. Sears speech was probably damaging in it's content. He completely spoke from an obviously biased perspective, speaking of athletes, and speaking of districts from which public schools draw their students, versus private schools.

 

I think he missed an opportunity to appear objective, by recognizing that although Private schools draw from both public and private middle schools, the same applies for public schools. Kids transfer both ways.

 

The part I think tripped him up the worst was his affirmation that only the (sic) good athletes made a difference. He came off looking like the only concern of the public schools was that private schools may be receiving more than what he considers a fair proportion of difference makers.

 

Even when pressed by the BOE representatives (I have no idea who was speaking), he clung to that as a worthy argument.

 

I thought that was not very good also on the part of the non-public school person who brought it up in the first place. I believe her example and direct quote was my child attends Sayre and is "not the type of athlete that would be recruited." Very poor choice of words on her part because the implication is that he would be being recruited if he were better. She should have just stated that my son is not a great athlete.

[leatherneck]

I agree with that last statement. These compromises go too far in punishment to the kids.

 

 

I didn't get to hear all of it (dang clients). But I agree with the one BOE member who stated something to the effect of: before we go to one and one, why don't we try just a one year period and see if its effective in deterring whatever aberrant behavior is "allegedly" going on. Heck we only have a one year ineligibilty period for transfers made because of participation in high school, what's the logic behind one and one for transfers made because of participation in junior high? If the one year period doesn't work and there still is a problem, it can be increased to one and one at a later time.

 

I personnally don't think all the illegal recruiting is going on that people think is going on. Either that or the coaches doing the recruiting are successful 100% of the time, because I can dang well assure you that if Highlands coach or Trinity's coach or LexCath's coach approached several parents about having their kids transfer and the parents decided not to transfer their kids, those parents would be running to the KHSAA to nail the Highlands and Trinitys of the world and if enough people complained about it, something would be done. But for the record, I know for a fact that there are not people making first hand allegations of recruiting to the KHSAA. Its always: my cousin Earl heard at the local soccer field that someone knew someone who last year was asked to transfer. I truly believe most allegations of recruiting are a bunch of rumors and unsubstantiated hearsay, with no truth behind them. It makes it a little easier to stomach betting beat when you can rationalize your loss by stating that the other team cheats. Heck I wouldn't put it past some athletes to try to inflate their talents by falsely saying that they were recruited by Highlands or Trinity because they were so good. No disrespect to Mr. Tackett, but people aren't unwilling to come forward because they are afraid or unwilling to put it in writing. They don't come forward because it isn't happening. Heck, my guess is that if Dale had approached Sandman 32 about his kid transferring to Highlands, or approached FabFour about FabFour's kid tranferring to Highlands, not only would they not have transferred their kids, they'd be so upset that Dale was illegally recruiting, they'd be on the phone the same day reporting Dale to the KHSAA.

 

And please, don't tell me that the KHSAA does not investigate even the hearsay allegations that they receive. They do. But as Brigid Devries testified, they allegations never get anywhere because no one can testify that their kid was approached by a coach and asked to tranfer. Don't you think if it was happening to the extent that requires such draconian measures as are being considered, that there would be more first hand testimony and allegations? Come on folks, just use a little common sense. And I know for a fact that this KHSAA administration and BOC is chomping at the bit to find a coach guilty of illegal recruiting, if for no other reason that to convince the supporters of Prop 20 that they are enforcing the rules. Folks, its just not going on.

 

I also truly believe the increase in transfers is caused by our society finally realizing that the high school that their children attend will have a major influence on their children's future lives. They realize the changing economy requires well educated workers and they realize the need for a very good high school education in order to get into a good college so as to get that good job. The days of going to a mediocre high school and getting a $20 an hour job at the local manufacturing plant are becoming ancient history. Those jobs are leaving and will continue to leave our shores for overseas. We can whine about how wrong that is until old Nellie walks back to the barn, but its a simple fact that will not be reversed.

 

I also believe that some transfers are caused by parents wanting their kids to do better athletically. And while I do not agree with some of the more extreme examples that will surely be raised, at the end of the day, its not my right to tell parents how they are to raise their children. I can't see myself ever transferring my sons from an excellent academic high school to another high school just because of sports, but if some parent wants to do so, that's their business to make the right choices for their kids, not mine.

 

And finally, I am not in any way in favor of any of the compromises. They don't really harm the coach who is doing the illegal recruiting (as stated above, I don't even think its occurring); they harm the kids as some members of the BOE seemingly understand. And make no mistake, it hurts the kids not the coaches.

[rockmom]

I thought that was not very good also on the part of the non-public school person who brought it up in the first place. I believe her example and direct quote was my child attends Sayre and is "not the type of athlete that would be recruited" Very poor choice of words on her part because the implication is that he would be being recruited if he were better. She should have just stated that my son is not a great athlete.

 

 

I didn't get to hear her whole speech....durned work. :irked:

 

I tuned in midway through Mr. Sears.

 

From my perspective, sitting in my office, the BOE was presented with speakers who presented their cases without objectivity and sufficient detachment.

[Gunner11]

After reading proposal 1, which relates to financial aid, I am more convinced than ever that this stuff needs to be stopped. Take a look at proposal 1 as it relates to MERIT based financial aid. It limits bothe the number of students that can receive merit based aid and limits the amount of merit based aid. That makes no sense. First, why is it the business of the KHSAA to limit merit based aid in any way, shape or form.. merit based aid is based on the objective results of a test. As an example, one form of merit based aid might say that a school will give a scholaship to the to 20 scores on the placement test. Why should that be limited by the KHSAA? Proposal 1 would limit the number of students that could receive merit based financial aid to the greater of 5 students or 5 percent of the student body. It would also limit the amount of merit based aid to 25 percent of the tuition. This is way off base. If the KHSAA and its membership won't put astop to this it is time for the legislature to step in and restore sanity.

 

That is the problem TA, merit based aid is NOT all based on test scores. I have found many "scholarships" based many non-academic criteria(community service, discretion of the donor, given by local business who have their own criteria, etc.)

[Gunner11]

I didn't get to hear her whole speech....durned work. :irked:

 

I tuned in midway through Mr. Sears.

 

From my perspective, sitting in my office, the BOE was presented with speakers who presented their cases without objectivity and sufficient detachment.

 

Well you didn't miss much. I was glad to hear that it seems that the bottom line for some of the members of the BOE is that they are not willing to engage in any sort of change that is going to be bad for kids. Although they really do not IMO want to make a decision and are hoping that they are out of office before it comes back to them.

[Gunner11]

I didn't get to hear all of it (dang clients). But I agree with the one BOE member who stated something to the effect of: before we go to one and one, why don't we try just a one year period and see if its effective in deterring whatever aberrant behavior is "allegedly" going on. Heck we only have a one year ineligibilty period for transfers made because of participation in high school, what's the logic behind one and one for transfers made because of participation in junior high? If the one year period doesn't work and there still is a problem, it can be increased to one and one at a later time.

 

I personnally don't think all the illegal recruiting is going on that people think is going on. Either that or the coaches doing the recruiting are successful 100% of the time, because I can dang well assure you that if Highlands coach or Trinity's coach or LexCath's coach approached several parents about having their kids transfer and the parents decided not to transfer their kids, those parents would be running to the KHSAA to nail the Highlands and Trinitys of the world and if enough people complained about it, something would be done. But for the record, I know for a fact that there are not people making first hand allegations of recruiting to the KHSAA. Its always: my cousin Earl heard at the local soccer field that someone knew someone who last year was asked to transfer. I truly believe most allegations of recruiting are a bunch of rumors and unsubstantiated hearsay, with no truth behind them. It makes it a little easier to stomach betting beat when you can rationalize your loss by stating that the other team cheats. Heck I wouldn't put it past some athletes to try to inflate their talents by falsely saying that they were recruited by Highlands or Trinity because they were so good. No disrespect to Mr. Tackett, but people aren't unwilling to come forward because they are afraid or unwilling to put it in writing. They don't come forward because it isn't happening. Heck, my guess is that if Dale had approached Sandman 32 about his kid transferring to Highlands, or approached FabFour about FabFour's kid tranferring to Highlands, not only would they not have transferred their kids, they'd be so upset that Dale was illegally recruiting, they'd be on the phone the same day reporting Dale to the KHSAA.

 

And please, don't tell me that the KHSAA does not investigate even the hearsay allegations that they receive. They do. But as Brigid Devries testified, they allegations never get anywhere because no one can testify that their kid was approached by a coach and asked to tranfer. Don't you think if it was happening to the extent that requires such draconian measures as are being considered, that there would be more first hand testimony and allegations? Come on folks, just use a little common sense. And I know for a fact that this KHSAA administration and BOC is chomping at the bit to find a coach guilty of illegal recruiting, if for no other reason that to convince the supporters of Prop 20 that they are enforcing the rules. Folks, its just not going on.

 

I also truly believe the increase in transfers is caused by our society finally realizing that the high school that their children attend will have a major influence on their children's future lives. They realize the changing economy requires well educated workers and they realize the need for a very good high school education in order to get into a good college so as to get that good job. The days of going to a mediocre high school and getting a $20 an hour job at the local manufacturing plant are becoming ancient history. Those jobs are leaving and will continue to leave our shores for overseas. We can whine about how wrong that is until old Nellie walks back to the barn, but its a simple fact that will not be reversed.

 

I also believe that some transfers are caused by parents wanting their kids to do better athletically. And while I do not agree with some of the more extreme examples that will surely be raised, at the end of the day, its not my right to tell parents how they are to raise their children. I can't see myself ever transferring my sons from an excellent academic high school to another high school just because of sports, but if some parent wants to do so, that's their business to make the right choices for their kids, not mine.

 

And finally, I am not in any way in favor of any of the compromises. They don't really harm the coach who is doing the illegal recruiting (as stated above, I don't even think its occurring); they harm the kids as some members of the BOE seemingly understand. And make no mistake, it hurts the kids not the coaches.

 

I agree, I am not so naive to think that some recruiting is not occuring. Not at any level to justify prop 20 or any of the proposals that the task force came up with. I think that you are correct that most of it is hearsay, however I am not to confident in the KHSAA's ability to even police their own bylaws in some cases. Since in some situations they do not even follow the findings of their own investigators.

[All Tell]

I am not to confident in the KHSAA's ability to even police their own bylaws in some cases. Since in some situations they do not even follow the findings of their own investigators.

 

I saw this as another theme that recurred through the day. If there are rules against recruiting now and if recruiting is as widespread as those on the public side would like us to believe then why is the KHSAA not finding more violations? If the KHSAA as a group is unable to "police" itself now how will they possibly be able to handle the new levels of bureaucracy these proposals will cause?

[rockmom]

I saw this as another theme that recurred through the day. If there are rules against recruiting now and if recruiting is as widespread as those on the public side would like us to believe then why is the KHSAA not finding more violations? If the KHSAA as a group is unable to "police" itself now how will they possibly be able to handle the new levels of bureaucracy these proposals will cause?

 

 

Could it be that recruiting is not as widespread as some would have us believe. I mean, perish the thought, but the KHSAA may be doing just fine in policing the member schools...but there's nothing of substance to the allegations!

[Gunner11]

I saw this as another theme that recurred through the day. If there are rules against recruiting now and if recruiting is as widespread as those on the public side would like us to believe then why is the KHSAA not finding more violations? If the KHSAA as a group is unable to "police" itself now how will they possibly be able to handle the new levels of bureaucracy these proposals will cause?

 

I fully agree, that in conjunction with the new proposals doing absolutely zero to help kids is why I am against them. I think in no way is the KHSAA prepared to add another layer of policing of feeder schools, boundary lines, etc.

[leatherneck]

I agree, I am not so naive to think that some recruiting is not occuring. Not at any level to justify prop 20 or any of the proposals that the task force came up with. I think that you are correct that most of it is hearsay, however I am not to confident in the KHSAA's ability to even police their own bylaws in some cases. Since in some situations they do not even follow the findings of their own investigators.

 

 

As to your last point, I can think of zero instances when they didn't follow the findings of their investigators (and I'm assuming by investigators you mean the folks retained by the KHSAA to investigate allegations of recruiting. They most certainly followed the findings of the investigator that recently investigated Lex Cath on the financial aid matter). However, they regularly most certainly do fail to follow the recommendations of their hearing officers, but that's only when the hearing officer recommended that the kid be eligible. Which means the KHSAA is tougher on enforcing the transfer rule than even their hearing officers recommend. This whole belief that the KHSAA doesn't enforce its rules is about as accurate as the belief that there is a lot of recruiting going on. In my mind the KHSAA is overzealous in enforcing the transfer rule and almost every other rule. But people, without much if any knowledge of the facts, like to belief they don't zealously enforce the rules for some reason.

[Gunner11]

Could it be that recruiting is not as widespread as some would have us believe. I mean, perish the thought, but the KHSAA may be doing just fine in policing the member schools...but there's nothing of substance to the allegations!

 

I would like to believe that is the case.

[Gunner11]

As to your last point, I can think of zero instances when they didn't follow the findings of their investigators (and I'm assuming by investigators you mean the folks retained by the KHSAA to investigate allegations of recruiting. They most certainly followed the findings of the investigator that recently investigated Lex Cath on the financial aid matter). However,they regularly do fail to follow the recommendations their hearing officers, but that's only when the hearing officer recommended that the kid be eligible. Which means the KHSAA is tougher on enforcing the transfer rule than even their hearing officers recommend. This whole belief that the KHSAA doesn't enforce its rules is about as accurate as the belief that there is a lot of recruiting going on. In my mind the KHSAA is overzealous in enforcing the transfer rule and almost every other rule. But people, without much if any knowledge of the facts, like to belief they don't zealously enforce the rules for some reason.

 

In my previous post, hearing officer = investigator(sorry I was not very clear). That was my point is that they have bylaws in place and their own hearing officer states that the rules were followed, yet the Board of Control still doesn't follow their own rules