Am I The Only One... Re: Pete Carroll

[rjs4470]

That's where you're wrong. They only had one TO. They wouldn't have been able to give him two shots.

 

That's one of the points I was trying to make. They were only going to be able to get Lynch one shot. You take that one shot on the first play (the one they threw the ball on), then you have to call that last time out. At that point, everyone in the stadium know you have to throw the ball on 3rd and 4th down because otherwise you can't stop the clock (although in theory you could still run on 4th down). By throwing first, they at least put themselves in a position where the Pats still had to defend both the run and the pass.

[rjs4470]

IF the Seahawks would have scored a TD then the media would have been on the Patriots for not using their timeout to conserve time.

 

Probably. I don't deny that. But Belichek has done things outside of the box plenty of times before. Taking a safety, letting a team score, going for on 4th and 1 deep in his own territory etc. Some have worked, some haven't. I appreciate his willingness to take chances without caring what anyone thinks. He's lucky that he has built up enough credibility with his fans and ownership that he can take those sorts of chances. There aren't many coaches that can get away with thinking outside the box.

[CincySportsFan]

That's one of the points I was trying to make. They were only going to be able to get Lynch one shot. You take that one shot on the first play (the one they threw the ball on), then you have to call that last time out. At that point, everyone in the stadium know you have to throw the ball on 3rd and 4th down because otherwise you can't stop the clock (although in theory you could still run on 4th down). By throwing first, they at least put themselves in a position where the Pats still had to defend both the run and the pass.

 

On 3rd down, I agree with you...you have to pass without any time outs. But on 4th down...you don't make it, you don't win, period. The clock would not be a factor on 4th down.

 

And FWIW, I don't have a problem with them throwing on 2nd down. I have a problem with that specific play. If you think the Patriots are going to be looking for the run, go with a play fake to Lynch to the left, roll Russell out on a naked bootleg to the right, and see if he can hit someone on a corner/quick out route. If nobody's open, he's got the option of throwing it away. But, that wasn't available on this quick hitter into traffic.

[DragonFire]

That's where you're wrong. They only had one TO. They wouldn't have been able to give him two shots.

 

I'm on my phone so I don't know if someone else has made this point, but yes he'd have been able to have two shots. You run, you don't get in, timeout. Third down you throw - IMO a rollout to give Wilson a choice. If that's incomplete you run on 4th down when the time no longer matters. Two cracks if necessary.

 

I'd have also accepted the pass play I mentioned if they ran that on second down instead. Or something with play action since New England would have expected run. In that scenario still you'd have opportunity to run on last two downs. You absolutely can run twice if you manage it.

[UKMustangFan]

So what I'm gathering from the responses, it's not so much that the passed on that play, but more so the specific play called that many have issue with. Is that accurate?

[sweet16]

So what I'm gathering from the responses, it's not so much that the passed on that play, but more so the specific play called that many have issue with. Is that accurate?

 

I still prefer a run play but if you pass a rollout would have been much better.

[JokersWild24]

Assume UK is playing Duke in the title game, down 1, and the refs call a technical foul on Coach K with .01 on the clock.

 

And Cal sends Marcus Lee (33% FT shooter) out to take the free throws and he bricks them both.

 

You better believe everyone would be talking about Cal's bonehead mistake. And it would be deserving. Nobody is saying Carroll is a bad coach, he just blew the biggest call of the year.

 

 

I think this one is much more akin to something like being up 3 and telling someone to foul and put the other side on the line for 2, then the other side makes the first, intentionally misses the 2nd, they get the rebound and score than it is sending Marcus Lee to the free throw line.

[Bengal Maniac]

A few things to think about. He should have run the ball on 2nd down and used his TO if they didn't score. On 3rd down run a read option and let Wilson hand it to Lynch, run it in, throw it to someone in the flat or throw it away. Then 4th down you can do anything. The only problem with running either Lynch or Wilson on 3rd down with no timeouts is you are probably not going to get a 4th down play run if this done with 15 seconds or less. Wilfork and the boys are not going to get off the blockers and whoever ran the ball very quickly and the Seahawks can only use the personnel grouping on the field.

 

Logically, you run 2nd down, throw 3rd down, and do whatever your best play is on 4th. They would not have had time to run it three times in 20 seconds.

 

Still...let Beast run it on second down, no earthly reason not to IMO. He's your best Offensive player and best RB in the league. I don't care of he was 1 for 5 during the season at the 1 yard line. It still is a no brainer call.

[UKMustangFan]

A few things to think about. He should have run the ball on 2nd down and used his TO if they didn't score. On 3rd down run a read option and let Wilson hand it to Lynch, run it in, throw it to someone in the flat or throw it away. Then 4th down you can do anything. The only problem with running either Lynch or Wilson on 3rd down with no timeouts is you are probably not going to get a 4th down play run if this done with 15 seconds or less. Wilfork and the boys are not going to get off the blockers and whoever ran the ball very quickly and the Seahawks can only use the personnel grouping on the field.

 

Logically, you run 2nd down, throw 3rd down, and do whatever your best play is on 4th. They would not have had time to run it three times in 20 seconds.

 

Still...let Beast run it on second down, no earthly reason not to IMO. He's your best Offensive player and best RB in the league. I don't care of he was 1 for 5 during the season at the 1 yard line. It still is a no brainer call.

 

If they can only run it twice, which I agree, what difference does it make if they run it 2nd or 3rd?

[Bengal Maniac]

If they can only run it twice, which I agree, what difference does it make if they run it 2nd or 3rd?

 

The difference is you put the 2nd down run in the refs hands if you don't call TO if the refs don't make the pile move off players quickly, so you have to call TO. On 3rd it depends on the time left if the refs get them off the pile in 14-15 seconds or if he clearly scores. Sometimes it takes 10 seconds to tell if he did and with no TO's on 3rd it is too risky. 2nd down is the down you have to run it. 3rd depends on time.

[Bengal Maniac]

The most illogical thing Carroll said after the game is he didn't think the kid could make that play. In the NFL all the guys on all teams can make that play or likely to if they know what is coming which he did.

[UKMustangFan]

The difference is you put the 2nd down run in the refs hands if you don't call TO if the refs don't make the pile move off players quickly, so you have to call TO. On 3rd it depends on the time left if the refs get them off the pile in 14-15 seconds or if he clearly scores. Sometimes it takes 10 seconds to tell if he did and with no TO's on 3rd it is too risky. 2nd down is the down you have to run it. 3rd depends on time.

 

Right. So you pass 2nd down, run on 3rd down, call a TO, and then on 4th down you can either run or pass.

[mexitucky]

The risk is much more passing the ball. That is a fact. Don't read more in to it than that.

 

The risk looks more spectacular. A 100% chance of scoring or going to 3rd down, how is that a bad call at that time? People are so reactionary on this. Guy had 25 sec. to make a play call that we have had 3 days to dissect. I really can't go too crazy on it.

[JokersWild24]

The difference is you put the 2nd down run in the refs hands if you don't call TO if the refs don't make the pile move off players quickly, so you have to call TO. On 3rd it depends on the time left if the refs get them off the pile in 14-15 seconds or if he clearly scores. Sometimes it takes 10 seconds to tell if he did and with no TO's on 3rd it is too risky. 2nd down is the down you have to run it. 3rd depends on time.

 

I understand what you are saying, and just playing Devil's Advocate with it, but if it's that rigid, then if I'm a DC and I know you are running on 2nd down, I sell out for the run. I also try and force you to use your timeout, which you probably do. 3rd down comes, I've had a timeout and we've regrouped, and I become more wary of the pass. 4th down you've probably kept your personnel group in from 3rd down and I've seen one look, which is probably your best, from the formation you are in and I've stopped it.