NKy Girls MS basketball: stay or move up?

[FastForward]

I know that this topic was posted on the girls HS thread & seemed to be a very heated topic so I'd like to start one on the MS thread.

My thoughts on this topic are if a high school program is low on numbers and there are MS players capable of filling that need then it's fine by me. Not many NKy Varsity teams are low on players, so I'm thinking more of filling a freshmen or JV roster. For me, that is an appropriate move that would benefit both the player & the team. On the other hand, I believe moving players up & sitting a 20+ player Varsity bench only weakens a program down the road. The importance of middle school program seems to be missed by many. Those MS years are about developing players that become all around better player. By that I mean the skill level has improved and the "team" mentality that is vital for success has also improved. If I were a Varsity coach, I would rather keep strong MS teams together as a whole because the longer a team plays together the stronger that HS program will be year after year. I believe one of the reasons you never hear of MS boys moving up to HS rosters is because boys HS coaches know this importance. Sure you can say there's never a shortage of boys trying out and maybe so, but I still think there is also a strategy of developing players as a unit to create a superteam down the road when it counts! People complain about the recent ban on MS playing up at Highlands, but I'll be very curious to see if Highlands will become & stay a powerhouse program season after season as a result of this ban. When that happens be sure to remember this old retired ref knew what he was talking about!!

[RCC9]

I know that this topic was posted on the girls HS thread & seemed to be a very heated topic so I'd like to start one on the MS thread.

My thoughts on this topic are if a high school program is low on numbers and there are MS players capable of filling that need then it's fine by me. Not many NKy Varsity teams are low on players, so I'm thinking more of filling a freshmen or JV roster. For me, that is an appropriate move that would benefit both the player & the team. On the other hand, I believe moving players up & sitting a 20+ player Varsity bench only weakens a program down the road. The importance of middle school program seems to be missed by many. Those MS years are about developing players that become all around better player. By that I mean the skill level has improved and the "team" mentality that is vital for success has also improved. If I were a Varsity coach, I would rather keep strong MS teams together as a whole because the longer a team plays together the stronger that HS program will be year after year. I believe one of the reasons you never hear of MS boys moving up to HS rosters is because boys HS coaches know this importance. Sure you can say there's never a shortage of boys trying out and maybe so, but I still think there is also a strategy of developing players as a unit to create a superteam down the road when it counts! People complain about the recent ban on MS playing up at Highlands, but I'll be very curious to see if Highlands will become & stay a powerhouse program season after season as a result of this ban. When that happens be sure to remember this old retired ref knew what he was talking about!!

 

It may happen with the 8th grade team, but it's not because they are playing together in MS. Many of them play AAU or have played AAU together for a long time. There are 4 kids on that team that won back to back D1 KY state championships. And two of them went on and have won 4 in a row. And that's not even counting Barth that has been a high contributed on the varsity team since last year. So they may be successful in the upcoming years, but it will have nothing to do with playing together in the 8th grade. I can tell you HHS is one of the top 3 teams picked to win the region this year. Almost every player on that team played "up" at some point. Adler has been starting varsity since 7th grade. Coffey started varsity the second half of her 8th grade year. Graves and Leigh also played up most of their MS years. They are very good this year and all played up. Playing together in MS and that equalling a good HS school team...those days are over. All the bball players play competitive AAU outside of school. Some with their school mates and some without. The culture of select sports has changed everything. Heck, HHS middle school only has 8 players on their team now. I could see maybe only 3 and maybe 4 even playing in HS because I think some of the others will eventually chose other sports. Here's why I say that. In the 6th grade, HHS started with 14 players. They were lucky enough to have two AAU teams formed in that class. That class is VERY deep with athletes in all sports. Just one of those classes! So most of the kids for from the two AAU teams (one team was very good and the other was competitive locally) tried out and made the team. They were very deep and all 14 kids could play. Very unusual for a MS girls teams to have that many kids that can actually play at that age. Conner was very similar. But as it's evolved, coming into tryouts this year, there was concern that they were even going to have enough to have a team. Several of those other kids started to focus on other sports. For some, BBall was a close second, but their firs love was something else. So when you have dominate bball players playing down, it actually discouraged the others from playing because they were athletes and don't like sitting behind anyone and it becomes less fun than the other sport they dominate in. So you can look at it as it's good to stay together or in HHS case, it might have been better to move them up so the other girls would have been challenged to play and be the focus. They all had the ability to develop in MS into very good Bball players, but in my opinion gave up a little early because they couldn't overcome the elite kids on the team. Yes, my daughter is one of the really good one, but those that know me know that I'm not saying all this to pump her up. just providing examples and she happens to be one of the examples.

 

Anyway, I'm just saying that any future success has nothing to do with them staying down. If anything, I might have hurt the numbers in that class.

 

And please know that I'm not bitter at all....I coach at HHS and I'm close with the staff. They know 100% that I'm not bitter or even care. I'm just in favor of "elite" kids playing at a level that challenges them the most. The problem we have in this day and age is that too many parents think their kid qualifies as "elite" and if Susie gets move up, they want their little girl to move up too. And it's really getting out of control.

[FastForward]

"The problem we have in this day and age is that too many parents think their kid qualifies as "elite" and if Susie gets move up, they want their little girl to move up too. And it's really getting out of control."

In reality, it's the parents pushing and not coaches. If a parent has to sell their kid's talent to a high school coach in order for that coach to take notice, good chance the kid isn't as "Elite" as you think!! I think HS coaches spend more of their time & effort on the players they have and don't "shop" for players in MS. Outside of HHS, NDA & St. Henry, almost every school has at least 1 or 2 MS on the HS roster. Just curious to see how this trend plays out over time, will MS start pulling players from Elementary schools to fill rosters when the MS numbers drop?? Sounds silly but you know there is a 5th grade Dad out there that thinks his kid belongs on MS team!!

[RCC9]

"The problem we have in this day and age is that too many parents think their kid qualifies as "elite" and if Susie gets move up, they want their little girl to move up too. And it's really getting out of control."

In reality, it's the parents pushing and not coaches. If a parent has to sell their kid's talent to a high school coach in order for that coach to take notice, good chance the kid isn't as "Elite" as you think!! I think HS coaches spend more of their time & effort on the players they have and don't "shop" for players in MS. Outside of HHS, NDA & St. Henry, almost every school has at least 1 or 2 MS on the HS roster. Just curious to see how this trend plays out over time, will MS start pulling players from Elementary schools to fill rosters when the MS numbers drop?? Sounds silly but you know there is a 5th grade Dad out there that thinks his kid belongs on MS team!!

 

Actually HHS' 6th man is an 8th grader. She was usually the first sub last year as well as a 7th grader. She has never played a second of MS basketball.

[FastForward]

Actually HHS' 6th man is an 8th grader. She was usually the first sub last year as well as a 7th grader. She has never played a second of MS basketball.

Yeah but she was "grandfathered" since played the last couple years at the HS level. She is a perfect example of MS talent that belongs playing up!! She had the full ability to play up both physically & mentally. I think players like her are rare. For the most part, the MS players I saw playing up over the summer stuck out as MS players. If a player is HS ready both physically & mentally, they blend with other HS talent or in some rare cases, stand above HS talent. That of course is just my opinion!!

[RCC9]

Yeah but she was "grandfathered" since played the last couple years at the HS level. She is a perfect example of MS talent that belongs playing up!! She had the full ability to play up both physically & mentally. I think players like her are rare. For the most part, the MS players I saw playing up over the summer stuck out as MS players. If a player is HS ready both physically & mentally, they blend with other HS talent or in some rare cases, stand above HS talent. That of course is just my opinion!!

 

I agree...skills, body type and mentally ready.

[TheColonel]

Development is the exact reason why I'd want my daughter to be moved up (assuming there's a solid staff in place at the high school level). While there are some absolutely terrific middle school coaches, there seems to be far more turnover. So often times you're rolling the dice. Is it someone who knows their stuff or someone who was strongly persuaded to coach simply to fill a position…especially on the girls side. It's often like a revolving door with little collaboration among the various grades at most schools.

 

As a parent, I'd want my daughter to be challenged as a middle schooler. If she can score 20+ every game then move her up. In my opinion that gives the others in her class an opportunity to develop while she's getting challenged at the next level…and keeps those players in high school hungry as they're fighting for a spot on the floor every day in practice and games.

 

Because of the pure physicality of the boys game in high school, 7th and 8th graders generally can't compete with the size, strength and speed of the game. There are exceptions to the rule such as Brandon Hatton but I don't think playing varsity ball as a middle schooler hindered his development:)

[Lee42]

Development is the exact reason why I'd want my daughter to be moved up (assuming there's a solid staff in place at the high school level). While there are some absolutely terrific middle school coaches, there seems to be far more turnover. So often times you're rolling the dice. Is it someone who knows their stuff or someone who was strongly persuaded to coach simply to fill a position…especially on the girls side. It's often like a revolving door with little collaboration among the various grades at most schools.

 

As a parent, I'd want my daughter to be challenged as a middle schooler. If she can score 20+ every game then move her up. In my opinion that gives the others in her class an opportunity to develop while she's getting challenged at the next level…and keeps those players in high school hungry as they're fighting for a spot on the floor every day in practice and games.

 

Because of the pure physicality of the boys game in high school, 7th and 8th graders generally can't compete with the size, strength and speed of the game. There are exceptions to the rule such as Brandon Hatton but I don't think playing varsity ball as a middle schooler hindered his development:)

 

"The Colonel" got it right at least for our situation. On the surface, Ideally, playing with your own grade sounded like a good idea but after watching some games I have different opinion at least for our situation. As “justwannacoach ” pointed out in his narrative addressed, “Dear Middle School Coaches”, on the boys thread. Not all Middle School coaches teach a lot in terms of fundamentals, perhaps they don’t have time to; especially 6th grade girls. In my daughters case they only have 1 hour of practice time, they NEVER work on ball skills, shooting or defense (basic stance, sliding, closing out etc.). For the possible exception of dribbling down and back with a couple of cross overs. Although they do play some man to man, they don’t know anything about switching. No fundamentals at all, but rather conditioning and plays. I guess that is all the time that they have since most of them have little to no experience with offenses, or defenses for that matter. During practice, she is often told just, “put your hands up, don’t steal the ball”. She is not challenged at all. There is only one other girl on the team that has any significant AAU experience. Becomes frustrating to watch when teammates can’t catch a simple pass or pivot without traveling. If she had more girls on the team that had better skills it may be worthwhile to continue to play with them PROVIDED they had a good coach! Although she has only played 2 complete games this season and only scored over 20pts once because the coach does a good job getting her out of the game. Watching her almost get a Quadruple double (not kidding, just a few assists away) is not in Anyone’s best interest, but on the other hand she really does not play as much as one would think.

Although, her teammates do get a lot more opportunities for shots once we get a lead she does a good job passing the ball around so that others can score. However, her teammates rely on her way too much which I believe impedes their own self-development…I guess a couple of benefits are opportunities for leadership and being able to represent her school while being able to play with her friends which she enjoys. Skill was, does not help at all because they are not worked on. She actually falls back to bad habits because she can get by with it 95% of the time.

[kyyank]

I am not in favor of kids playing up unless there is a need.

 

AAU is now the forum for kids to be recruited so it's back to the high school experience. No high school kid should be denied a chance to play at the expense of a MS kid. This is part of their hs experience. The MS kids will get their 4 years.

[malachicrunch]

I think they shouldn't d play up until they are frosh . I think it hurts chemistry and I think you may lose girls at an early age. Couple girls get moved up and it sends a message to the rest of the group. Highlands has moved girls up for every. They havehas some good teams. Haven't won the prize though. Jmho

[RCC9]

I think they shouldn't d play up until they are frosh . I think it hurts chemistry and I think you may lose girls at an early age. Couple girls get moved up and it sends a message to the rest of the group. Highlands has moved girls up for every. They havehas some good teams. Haven't won the prize though. Jmho

 

Not disagreeing either way. But there are schools that traditionally don't move kids up that havent won the prize either. In fact, there are several teams that don't win the region every year. I don't think moving up or not is a key indicator on why a team hasn't or has won a region.

[malachicrunch]

Highlands is well known for playing younger girls up. Just sayin if they had a couple of regional titles int th case there would be a better argument for it. That being said I think the have had the talent a couple of times to have won the region and just didn't get it done

[Clyde]

Shoutout to my girl Sarah Henry for putting up 16 last night for Conner.

[RCC9]

Shoutout to my girl Sarah Henry for putting up 16 last night for Conner.

 

Nice player!

[hoops5]

I think that in general, coaches need to be cautious when they pull up a younger player, be it a middle schooler or even pulling up a frosh to play on varsity. Once a kid gets pulled up and over older players, there is resentment and anger by the other older players AND their parents. This certainly damages the team dynamics on the court or field---to the point of older players not including/passing etc to the younger player just to prove a point. Too often the coach does not address it with his team and the success and dynamics of the team suffer.

Lived it in both basketball and soccer.

Word.