How Many Pitches Are Too Many?

[rjs4470]

I was having this conversation recently. The guy I was talking with suggested that with so many inning and pitch counts in place, do kids throw (or try to) harder, knowing that they'll only have to do it 100 times or for a certain number of innings. Perhaps the counts are putting an accidental undo strain on them because they are overdoing it in what limited time they have on the mound that day. I'm not sure I completely agree with him, but it was an interesting point.

 

I don't know that any kid changes his approach due to pitch counts in terms of velocity. What I think happens, is coaches and players get so hung up on game day pitch counts, that they don't throw enough between pitching appearances. Structured bullpen sessions, long toss etc between appearances is just as important as limiting pitch counts during games, and without work during off days, kids never build the required arm strength. And beyond pitch counts, how often do you see a kid removed from pitching, only to go play shortstop, or catch, and have to come back and make several high effort throws?? Putting that extra, high effort stress on an already tired arm is not a good thing.

[BengalBob]

Couple things that come to my mind. Lets say they have a 100 pitch count in a day. That doesn't count the 5 or 8 warm up pitches they are allowed each inning. So they could end up throwing 135-154 pitches and that is not counting warm up in the bull pen before the game. I had heard the Bellevue kid was throwing an hour before his game on Monday.

 

My other thought is, if the KHSAA starts to impose pitch counts who do you think is going to monitor this. That will become touchy. I also know several coaches that will be trying to work pitchers to get those numbers up on a kid if they think they have a better changes with the relief pitcher.

 

 

You heard wrong. They didn't get onto the field until 55 minutes before the game. And the Bellevue warm-up routine consists of running and stretching BEFORE they throw a pitch to get loose. And while I'm quite certain that the young man was nervous and anxious, I'm equally certain that their coaches were aware of his warm-up situation. Not sure where you were going with that but those are the facts. The kid probably was a bit early when he finished his warm-ups, but the amount of work warming up was nothing unusual for one of their pitchers. I'm also pretty sure they were given a 45 minute time frame for starting that ended up being right at an hour. Not good, but not the worst thing in the world.

[uselessinfo]

Couple things that come to my mind. Lets say they have a 100 pitch count in a day. That doesn't count the 5 or 8 warm up pitches they are allowed each inning. So they could end up throwing 135-154 pitches and that is not counting warm up in the bull pen before the game. I had heard the Bellevue kid was throwing an hour before his game on Monday.

 

My other thought is, if the KHSAA starts to impose pitch counts who do you think is going to monitor this. That will become touchy. I also know several coaches that will be trying to work pitchers to get those numbers up on a kid if they think they have a better changes with the relief pitcher.

 

And I can tell you this. The Bellevue pitcher goes through a very ritualistic warm up situation and I can promise you that in eleven starts this season he NEVER once cracked the 100 pitch mark. In fact his high would go right around 92. Not sure why you made a point to single him out at all. The Bellevue staff is very careful on how they handle him as young and lets face it not a very large, strong young man yet.

[callwhatyousee]

And I can tell you this. The Bellevue pitcher goes through a very ritualistic warm up situation and I can promise you that in eleven starts this season he NEVER once cracked the 100 pitch mark. In fact his high would go right around 92. Not sure why you made a point to single him out at all. The Bellevue staff is very careful on how they handle him as young and lets face it not a very large, strong young man yet.

 

Not singling him out. I know the young man pretty well, was just using him as an example of the extra throwing that kids do that don't go against pitch counts. If he is doing it, I wonder if there are many others that have the same kind of rituals like you say and they then get an extra 50 pitches or so before the game even starts.

[TAC]

5-6 pitches for every year old you are.

[uselessinfo]

Not singling him out. I know the young man pretty well, was just using him as an example of the extra throwing that kids do that don't go against pitch counts. If he is doing it, I wonder if there are many others that have the same kind of rituals like you say and they then get an extra 50 pitches or so before the game even starts.

 

That makes sense.:thumb:

[4pointplay]

Nothing really surprises me anymore on the high school or summer ball circuit. Routinely see young pitchers throwing 80-100 pitches and breaking balls are being coached instead of teaching location and changing speeds. Have seen players catch the first game of a DH and then become the starting pitcher the very next game. I think what truly convinced me that we have created a situation that is not healthy for young pitchers is that I saw a 9U team with a radar gun.

[rjs4470]

Nothing really surprises me anymore on the high school or summer ball circuit. Routinely see young pitchers throwing 80-100 pitches and breaking balls are being coached instead of teaching location and changing speeds. Have seen players catch the first game of a DH and then become the starting pitcher the very next game. I think what truly convinced me that we have created a situation that is not healthy for young pitchers is that I saw a 9U team with a radar gun.

 

Actually, a radar gun is a pretty important tool. It helps you determine when a pitcher's velocity is dropping, which is an indication of fatigue. Also, when teaching the changeup, you want to be able to truly gauge the difference in speed from the fastball to help determine if the pitch is being thrown correctly and how effective the pitch is. Also, all breaking balls are not bad. I'd never teach a slider to a kid, but there are curve balls that can be taught that don't require twisting of the wrist or hard snaps. Not saying it should be thrown all the time, but it can be done without doing damage to the arm. I do know SWOL has pretty strict pitch counts, but as you mentioned, it's not uncommon to see kids pitch 7 innings then catch or play short. I think the throws that make from the field after pitching can cause more damage than pitching.

[nkuclubbaseball19]

And I can tell you this. The Bellevue pitcher goes through a very ritualistic warm up situation and I can promise you that in eleven starts this season he NEVER once cracked the 100 pitch mark. In fact his high would go right around 92. Not sure why you made a point to single him out at all. The Bellevue staff is very careful on how they handle him as young and lets face it not a very large, strong young man yet.

 

He threw 98 in the regional in his six innings of work.

[TAC]

One thing I have always wondered. Does anyone ever take into consideration how many warm up pitches, throws to first, etc that also come into play that are not part of the ever so important pitch count?

[sweet16]

To me the type of pitches thrown may be more important. Went to a 12U game last summer and kids were throwing more breaking balls than fastballs. That is crazy.

[katbird]

My youngest son went to Disney last year and played in the USSSA Elite 32 @ the 9u level. Every team that they played that was from the south threw true curve balls @ 9yrs old. It made me sick watching these young kids throwing curve balls at that age..It was truly shocking!!:ohbrother:

[Jimmy Olson]

rjs4470...As I totally agree with using the gun for health purposes, as I have personally done in the past, I don't really agree with the curveball/slider call. Besides the good ole heater, the only other pitches that create a natural pronation are the sinker and change. The cutter, slider, slurve and curve are all supination pitches which do create the snap/roll over to the natural pronation after thrown. The wrist should be pre-set on the supination pitches. I totally agree with pitch counts, but at the same time every kid is different. Your gun idea is a very good way to see if the kid is tiring. if he is, THAT is when things start to go wrong. I would venture to say that the first thing most coaches look at on "Little Johnny" is the upper half and where he is releasing the ball ect.. When actually they should look at the kids foundation first and work their way up. My first year as a high school pitching coach, we were doing bullpens and the stud pitcher stepped up to the mound. The kid threw 2 pitches and I stopped him and ask him. Does your arm ever bother after pitching? The kid response was "Coach, it freakin kills me". I proceeded to tell the kid why and it was because of his foundation. He and I worked to get him out of that habit and his arm didn't kill him after he threw that year. I do agree with throws from the field after pitching can create potential issues after pitching. If the kid is a top hitter he needs to DH. I've been told personally from Alan Jaeger of Jaeger Sports, that it would be best if the kid throws 40+ pitches, he shouldn't play the field for a couple days after pitching. This is JMO and thoughts on the subject.

 

Actually, a radar gun is a pretty important tool. It helps you determine when a pitcher's velocity is dropping, which is an indication of fatigue. Also, when teaching the changeup, you want to be able to truly gauge the difference in speed from the fastball to help determine if the pitch is being thrown correctly and how effective the pitch is. Also, all breaking balls are not bad. I'd never teach a slider to a kid, but there are curve balls that can be taught that don't require twisting of the wrist or hard snaps. Not saying it should be thrown all the time, but it can be done without doing damage to the arm. I do know SWOL has pretty strict pitch counts, but as you mentioned, it's not uncommon to see kids pitch 7 innings then catch or play short. I think the throws that make from the field after pitching can cause more damage than pitching.

[Jimmy Olson]

Why don't these coaches just teach FASTBALL, SINKER AND CHANGE. That's ridiculous!

 

My youngest son went to Disney last year and played in the USSSA Elite 32 @ the 9u level. Every team that they played that was from the south threw true curve balls @ 9yrs old. It made me sick watching these young kids throwing curve balls at that age..It was truly shocking!!:ohbrother:

[k'd looking]

pitch counts.........over rated!!!! i think what really causes a lot of the arm problems for younger kids is playing summer ball,then fall ball.select teams will play another 35-50 games during the summer. where's the down time? rest might be the best thing for EVERYONE!!!! including coaches. [even grown men have a off season].i know they will have about 4 months off,but a lot of them will be playing fall and winter sports.[football/basketball] it's become 24/7 ... 365 days a year for some of these young men. less is more sometimes.anyway,i truly get tired of the whole pitch count thing.don't get me wrong,it has it's place.lets just don't be so anal about it. if khsaa was really concerned,they would change the time off between games that these kids pitch. don't see that happening. bottom line....you will always have coaches who take care of their players,and coaches who.....well,think their taking care of their players. good luck to s.k-scott-conner in the state tourny.