Rules Question Help Needed

[refinstripes]

sir?

[UKCATSFAN]

Substitutions: 11 players on offense. A sub comes onto the field, the player being replaced must leave the field immediately. If not, the WH or U will flag for illegal sub. If the ball is snapped and more than 11 O is on the field, you will have a 15 yard penalty for illegal participation.

 

The play to begin the thread is legal, 10 on the field, sub comes in and player goes near the sideline, is it deception? If an official deems that in their judgement you can use rule 10 but is highly unlikely to do so. As long as no deception is noted, this play is legal.

 

Ask some official in your area for their old rules books. I gave mine away but always keep the previous year to refer back. Hey, better, join the KHSAA and officiate.....:banana:

 

 

 

:thumb: I have been a KHSAA official for 13 yrs now. Every year someone asks me for my old rule book and I am more than happy to pass it along to anyone willing to learn the rules.

[UKCATSFAN]

I think I disagree; the answer is yes, it is most definitely a foul for deception. Please send me a pm.

 

As long as the player is inside the 9yd marks at ANY point after the ready for play, it is legal. If not then it is an illegal substitution on the offense.

[UKCATSFAN]

Substitutions: 11 players on offense. A sub comes onto the field, the player being replaced must leave the field immediately. If not, the WH or U will flag for illegal sub. If the ball is snapped and more than 11 O is on the field, you will have a 15 yard penalty for illegal participation.

 

The play to begin the thread is legal, 10 on the field, sub comes in and player goes near the sideline, is it deception? If an official deems that in their judgement you can use rule 10 but is highly unlikely to do so. As long as no deception is noted, this play is legal.

 

Ask some official in your area for their old rules books. I gave mine away but always keep the previous year to refer back. Hey, better, join the KHSAA and officiate.....:banana:

 

 

 

 

Correct.... The sub must leave the playing field immediately. But as far as "breaking the huddle with 12" , there is nothing in the rulebook stating this specifically.

 

Rule 3-7-1: Between downs any number of eligible subs may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.

 

 

 

Usually the officials will know if either team has more than 11 players on the field and if we catch it at the snap, the penalty would be illegal substitution because the replaced player did not leave the field immediately. Now if the officials don't catch it until after the snap, then the penalty would be illegal partcipation. The Referee and Umpire should catch this before the snap since they are the ones required to count the offense. As a Linejudge myself, I am counting the defense with the Backjudge and Linesman. I am sure you know all of this but I just typed it out for the non-officials reading our posts.

 

Any time we officials can help explain a rule or application of the rules, feel free to PM me anytime. I'm sure refinstripes feels the same way.:thumb:

[UKCATSFAN]

As long as the player is inside the 9yd marks at ANY point after the ready for play, it is legal. If not then it is an illegal substitution on the offense.

 

 

 

The only way it would be illegal is if the player uses a coach, trainer, or any other attendent in a pretended substitution to decieve an opponent at or immediately before the snap or free kick. That would include any of the "Wrong Ball" or "Argueing Coach" play or any of the various different plays meant to decieve the defense.

[FBRULES]

OK, If a player comes onto the field from the sidelines, he has to first go inside the numbers, after he has established being on the field, he does not have to re-enter the inside of the numbers before every play. Once again this is to stop the 10 players being on the field and a player stepping on the field from the sideline and running a streak route down the field, uncovered.

 

This is bad information again. All players have to be inside the numbers between the period of the ready for play signal and the snap. This applies to every player on ever single play. The words above "he does not have to re-enter the inside of the numbers before every play" is another example of something that is not in the high school rule book and just made up.

 

I'm begging people. Only post rules information that you have studied to be true.

[Ram]

This is bad information again. All players have to be inside the numbers between the period of the ready for play signal and the snap. This applies to every player on ever single play. The words above "he does not have to re-enter the inside of the numbers before every play" is another example of something that is not in the high school rule book and just made up.

 

I'm begging people. Only post rules information that you have studied to be true.

 

My only question is: then why is it not enforced? I have seen many teams, who run the spread, line up with wide outs, and run a dive up the middle, the WR never moves on the play, they then linup, in no huddle, without coming inside the numbers and run an audible and run another play.

 

That is my concern, some of the rules, especially the more obscure rules, are called by some crews and not called by other crews. That is one thing that adds to the misunderstanding of the rules. Like the cut block, I have asked multiple officials to explain this, and I have at least four different explanations. Does that mean that all four are wrong? No, it means at least three of the officials do not understand the rule. I have had it called against my team, I ask the official how to do it legally, the next game we do it as instructed, and we are penalized, I again ask the official how to do it legally, and again the next game we do it as explained, and we are penalized. Please do not try to explain the cut block, I was just using it as an explanation, and I now instruct my players to not do it in any manner, because it always gets penalized. I have a copy of the rule book, I know what it says, but I am more concerned with how the official enforces the rule then I am about what the book says.

 

All people want in consistency.

[refinstripes]

My only question is: then why is it not enforced? I have seen many teams, who run the spread, line up with wide outs, and run a dive up the middle, the WR never moves on the play, they then linup, in no huddle, without coming inside the numbers and run an audible and run another play.

 

That is my concern, some of the rules, especially the more obscure rules, are called by some crews and not called by other crews. That is one thing that adds to the misunderstanding of the rules. Like the cut block, I have asked multiple officials to explain this, and I have at least four different explanations. Does that mean that all four are wrong? No, it means at least three of the officials do not understand the rule. I have had it called against my team, I ask the official how to do it legally, the next game we do it as instructed, and we are penalized, I again ask the official how to do it legally, and again the next game we do it as explained, and we are penalized. Please do not try to explain the cut block, I was just using it as an explanation, and I now instruct my players to not do it in any manner, because it always gets penalized. I have a copy of the rule book, I know what it says, but I am more concerned with how the official enforces the rule then I am about what the book says.

 

All people want in consistency.

 

you are correct about officials at times have different interps of the rules and we are trying to be more consistent.

 

As far as this thread, the rule in not intended to penalize a team unless there is intent to deceive. The play it is trying to penalize is the so called "hide out" play.

 

For example, if A has the ball with only 10 players, the sub can walk onto the field prior to the snap and position himself within the ticks and be elgible to participate. The rule is to catch A when the player steps onto the filed, near sideline and goes down the field to participate.

 

Another example similar to the thread, A has 11 on the field and send in two subs but three leave the huddle. One of the three leaving remains on the field near the sideline and B does not react to the player. He then proceeds at the snap and catches a pass, that is deception and a 15 yarder...

 

Again, it really relies on the rules interp and the intent of the play. Does the player come off the field in the manner that he is questioning the coach why he is being replaced but then participates.... ? Foul

Does he come out looking back to the huddle and lines up as if he is going to be participating, no foul.... It's about deception.....

[All Play No Work]

Illegal play.

 

Rule 9-6-4...It is illegal participation:

 

d. To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitiution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

 

15 yard penalty.

 

Is that a recent rule?

 

I've seen Bellevue run the play described to perfection at least 3 times and they were never flagged for it.

 

How would "deceive" be interpreted? The player was on the field for the third down play. He was near the huddle for the fourth down play.

 

Could not the coach contend that the player in question is truly his wide-out on punt coverage and that he was simply instructing his player to "Go" down the field and stop arguing since his back was to the play?

[oneijoe]

...

 

Like the cut block, I have asked multiple officials to explain this, and I have at least four different explanations. Does that mean that all four are wrong? No, it means at least three of the officials do not understand the rule. I have had it called against my team, I ask the official how to do it legally, the next game we do it as instructed, and we are penalized, I again ask the official how to do it legally, and again the next game we do it as explained, and we are penalized. Please do not try to explain the cut block, I was just using it as an explanation, and I now instruct my players to not do it in any manner, because it always gets penalized. I have a copy of the rule book, I know what it says, but I am more concerned with how the official enforces the rule then I am about what the book says.

 

All people want in consistency.

 

 

The "cut block" is an excellent example of an inconsistantly enforced rule. I've seen it called on a TE sealing a DE and I've seen it NOT called on a WR blind-siding a safety downfield on a rolling block.

 

IMO, if the wording of a rule is such that it may be interpreted multiple ways (as per "illegal substitution"), it is by definition a bad rule.

 

As far as a "cut block" is concerned, it would be much simpler and maintain safety for players if ALL blocks below the waist were disallowed. And with "illegal substitution", it would be make more sense to NEVER put officials in the position of making a judgement call about "intent" - if the player is within the 9 yd. side mark after the ready signal that should be enough (shame on a defense not paying attention to any offensive player still on the playing field !!).

[refinstripes]

Let me give you a web-site that is great for questions about officiating...

 

http://www.nfhs.org

 

click the sport, discussion forum and register, have fun but these officials on here know there stuff. They will give you there thoughts, you can just read or ask questions...

 

 

http://www.refstripes.com

[offside]

Is that a recent rule?

 

I've seen Bellevue run the play described to perfection at least 3 times and they were never flagged for it.

 

How would "deceive" be interpreted? The player was on the field for the third down play. He was near the huddle for the fourth down play.

 

Could not the coach contend that the player in question is truly his wide-out on punt coverage and that he was simply instructing his player to "Go" down the field and stop arguing since his back was to the play?

 

Coaches are contentious by nature , so any illegitimate argument they may come up with would not surprise me. What you described is an illegal play because a pretended substitution is used to deceive the opponents.

[All Play No Work]

Coaches are contentious by nature , so any illegitimate argument they may come up with would not surprise me. What you described is an illegal play because a pretended substitution is used to deceive the opponents.

 

But really (not to defend coaches) it wasn't a pretend substitution in this case.

 

If it is 3rd and 5 at the 50 and they run the ball up the middle for no gain.......and the "punt" call comes from the sidelines......and four players run on the field and three run off .......and the wide receiver that was on the field for the 3rd down play...........starts towards the sidelines yelling at the coach for the play call..........

 

who's to say deception was involved? The coach could yell back, "Shut up and get out here wide and Go!!!.

 

Like I said it works to perfection.

[offside]

But really (not to defend coaches) it wasn't a pretend substitution in this case.

 

If it is 3rd and 5 at the 50 and they run the ball up the middle for no gain.......and the "punt" call comes from the sidelines......and four players run on the field and three run off .......and the wide receiver that was on the field for the 3rd down play...........starts towards the sidelines yelling at the coach for the play call..........

 

who's to say deception was involved? The coach could yell back, "Shut up and get out here wide and Go!!!.

 

Like I said it works to perfection.

 

If you got by with it , great, chalk it up as a victory. Please understand that Illegal Participation could be called in the future and it could result in a 15 yard penalty.

 

That's all. Good luck.

 

offside

[UKCATSFAN]

Is that a recent rule?

 

I've seen Bellevue run the play described to perfection at least 3 times and they were never flagged for it.

 

How would "deceive" be interpreted? The player was on the field for the third down play. He was near the huddle for the fourth down play.

 

Could not the coach contend that the player in question is truly his wide-out on punt coverage and that he was simply instructing his player to "Go" down the field and stop arguing since his back was to the play?

 

 

 

Then again, it goes back to the ready for play whistle and the 9yd mark. If he was inside the 9 yd marks after the ready for play then he is legal as long as he doesn't use a coach, trainer, or sidelined player to decieve the defense.