Are you concerned that your litmus test may be causing you to vote for the candidate who can do less overall good for you and the country? If the candidate is pro-life but also goes against your belief in the healthcare issue, the tax issue, foreign policy, etc , are you essentially voting for someone you would not vote for outside of the pro-life stance? Is the pro-life stance getting you into an economic or military situation that goes against your beliefs? Considering that the pro-life issue appears to be locked in stone for at least the near future, how does this litmus test help the country?

 

For the record, those are legit questions and not political statements.

Let me explain my view. First, I believe that if you're (the candidate) ok with killing unborn children, how can I expect you to get anything else right? And as you said, I don't vote strictly pro-choice, but look at many issues. However, abortion stance is weighted heavily. I give Pro-Life the most weight, Pro-Choice much less, and the guy/gal who says "I'm not for abortion, but I don't want to restrict a woman's choice" is obviously a waffler and gets no credit at all.

Was slavery easier to overcome (ie change) than abortion? I'd say it was.

A half million American soldiers who died in 4 years might disagree with that.

If a candidate was pro-choice but came up with a guaranteed way to provide health care to every child in the country without the taxpayer being overburdened, would you not want to vote for them in the name of the same compassion you have re: abortion considering that abortion laws will not be changing anytime soon?

Wouldn't have to vote for him. If he came up with such a plan, why couldn't it be implemented without him being in office?

Let me explain my view. First, I believe that if you're (the candidate) ok with killing unborn children, how can I expect you to get anything else right? And as you said, I don't vote strictly pro-choice, but look at many issues. However, abortion stance is weighted heavily. I give Pro-Life the most weight, Pro-Choice much less, and the guy/gal who says "I'm not for abortion, but I don't want to restrict a woman's choice" is obviously a waffler and gets no credit at all.

 

So its a big deal but its not a litmus test for you, correct?

So its a big deal but its not a litmus test for you, correct?

It would be a litmus test when all other things are near equal.

It would be a litmus test when all other things are near equal.

 

Cool. I thought when you said yes to the litmus test question initially that it was the ONLY factor.

I know that the way it was asked maybe got it removed, but I would like to answer spindocs question. Do I think that homosexuality is wrong? No.

 

Do you not believe the rich are our oppressors? I have just as much New Testament support for that view as you do for your views on homosexuality. And if you're going to quote the Old Testament at me, you'd better be prepared to deal with the other rules and prohibitions of the Hebrew Bible. There are a few I think you'd balk at.

 

If on the other hand you are concerned with what Jesus actually said, then I hope you're more concerned about divorce than you are about homosexuality. Where is the national drive to outlaw divorce, to put judges on the court to combat it? Maybe it doesn't exist because so many straight Christians don't want their options limited. The fact of the matter is, homosexuals are a much easier target, regardless of scriptual basis. Its so easy for conservatives to make a rallying cry on so few people, and ignore the 50% divorce rate- the real threat to marriage.

Was slavery easier to overcome (ie change) than abortion? I'd say it was.

 

If a candidate was pro-choice but came up with a guaranteed way to provide health care to every child in the country without the taxpayer being overburdened, would you not want to vote for them in the name of the same compassion you have re: abortion considering that abortion laws will not be changing anytime soon?

I hope it does not take as many lives to change it as the Civil War and the dealings going on in slavery did. I am afraid that we probably have seen more babies murdered through abortion than died in the Civil War and through the torture of slavery. And yet, we are not upset about that as a nation. That truly saddens me.

 

You can live without health care. You can't live after being aborted. Life takes precedence over an economic quality of life in this argument.

I think the whole point is that Democrats/Liberals come in different sizes and flavors just as Republicans/Conservatives do. I'm a Republican/Conservative, but I also have my own values which may not coincide with the stereotype.

I know that the way it was asked maybe got it removed, but I would like to answer spindocs question. Do I think that homosexuality is wrong? No.

 

Do you not believe the rich are our oppressors? I have just as much New Testament support for that view as you do for your views on homosexuality. And if you're going to quote the Old Testament at me, you'd better be prepared to deal with the other rules and prohibitions of the Hebrew Bible. There are a few I think you'd balk at.

 

If on the other hand you are concerned with what Jesus actually said, then I hope you're more concerned about divorce than you are about homosexuality. Where is the national drive to outlaw divorce, to put judges on the court to combat it? Maybe it doesn't exist because so many straight Christians don't want their options limited. The fact of the matter is, homosexuals are a much easier target, regardless of scriptual basis. Its so easy for conservatives to make a rallying cry on so few people, and ignore the 50% divorce rate- the real threat to marriage.

Divorce in certain cases was okayed by Jesus.

 

And yes, I agree, that divorce and the ripping part of families is a HUGE, HUGE problem.

Divorce in certain cases was okayed by Jesus.

 

And yes, I agree, that divorce and the ripping part of families is a HUGE, HUGE problem.

Whew! I was wondering where you were going with that!

I know that the way it was asked maybe got it removed, but I would like to answer spindocs question. Do I think that homosexuality is wrong? No.

 

Do you not believe the rich are our oppressors? I have just as much New Testament support for that view as you do for your views on homosexuality. And if you're going to quote the Old Testament at me, you'd better be prepared to deal with the other rules and prohibitions of the Hebrew Bible. There are a few I think you'd balk at.

 

If on the other hand you are concerned with what Jesus actually said, then I hope you're more concerned about divorce than you are about homosexuality. Where is the national drive to outlaw divorce, to put judges on the court to combat it? Maybe it doesn't exist because so many straight Christians don't want their options limited. The fact of the matter is, homosexuals are a much easier target, regardless of scriptual basis. Its so easy for conservatives to make a rallying cry on so few people, and ignore the 50% divorce rate- the real threat to marriage.

 

Excellent points. :thumb:

Divorce in certain cases was okayed by Jesus.

 

And yes, I agree, that divorce and the ripping part of families is a HUGE, HUGE problem.

 

Where was this OKd by Jesus? Guess the Catholic Church didn't get that memo. Why else would Henry VIII have gone through all that trouble to start his own church?

Where was this OKd by Jesus? Guess the Catholic Church didn't get that memo. Why else would Henry VIII have gone through all that trouble to start his own church?

Actually, it was Moses that gave permission for divorce. However, here's what Jesus had to say about that:

 

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Where was this OKd by Jesus? Guess the Catholic Church didn't get that memo. Why else would Henry VIII have gone through all that trouble to start his own church?

Matthew 5 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

Matthew 5

The Beatitudes

1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

 

....

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

Matthew 19

Divorce

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

 

4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

 

7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

 

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

 

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

 

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic!