Issues not being discussed!

[TonyDanza]

Come on Tony...a BIG TIME media star such as yourself cannot wrench this info out of the session? You may have to resort to more devious :scared: tactics. :lol:

 

I am working on it :fire: :fire:

[westsider]

Size: Yes T and X are larger and have the advantage of more boys to choose from. The 100 size roster is not a point. Public schools could field 100 size rosters.

Is there a public school anywhere in this state with 100 kids in the program?

Girls single sex private schools are not as large as the boys because there are more girls schools.

By my count, there are four all-girls schools in Louisville and three all-boys schools.

 

The girls' school enrollment (Sacred Heart, Assumption, Mercy and Presentation) was a combined 2,572 last year.

 

The boys' school enrollment (Trinity, St. Xavier, DeSales) was a combined 3,151 last year.

 

That raises a question ... why is the enrollment concentrated so heavily into two all-boys schools? Why does the Archdiocese of Louisville sponsor four girls schools and only three boys schools, even though they historically enroll more boys in the system?

The number of players on the roster isn't the deciding factor.

In some cases, it does. In my opinion, the numbers advantage is sizable for both Trinity and St. Xavier.

Highlands (a small 3A public school) competes just fine with T and X with a 60 man roster.

In some years, yes. This year, the Bluebirds were far from competitive with St. Xavier.

[Trinity alum]

Is there a public school anywhere in this state with 100 kids in the program?

By my count, there are four all-girls schools in Louisville and three all-boys schools.

 

The girls' school enrollment (Sacred Heart, Assumption, Mercy and Presentation) was a combined 2,572 last year.

 

The boys' school enrollment (Trinity, St. Xavier, DeSales) was a combined 3,151 last year.

 

That raises a question ... why is the enrollment concentrated so heavily into two all-boys schools? Why does the Archdiocese of Louisville sponsor four girls schools and only three boys schools, even though they historically enroll more boys in the system?

In some cases, it does. In my opinion, the numbers advantage is sizable for both Trinity and St. Xavier.

In some years, yes. This year, the Bluebirds were far from competitive with St. Xavier.

Most of the schools are not sponsored by the Archdiocese of Louisville. Most of the girls schools are sponsored by a religious order. St. x is sponsored by the Xavieran Brothers. Trinity was founded by the Archdiocese but has been governed by an independent board for quite a few years. The number of kids at each school is determined by the number of kids that want to go to school there. I don't think any of them turn students away.

[All Play No Work]

West,

 

I can't make kids play football at a public school. In NKY Dixie has 66 (10-12) players on their roster and Boone Co has 68 (10-12). Add in another 25 on the Frosh teams and you are approaching 100 in the programs. And Boone Co would have a lot more if Ryle High School hadn't been created.

 

In NKY the all-Girls school (Notre Dame) has 600 students while the all-Boys school (CovCath) has 485. Why? Who knows?

 

Highlands (one of the smallest 3A schools) year in and year out are just as good as Trinity and St. X in football. They usually dress 60-70 (10-12) players and are most often the best team in NKY out of all classes. How do they manage to overcome the numbers problem?

[PepRock01]

Most of the schools are not sponsored by the Archdiocese of Louisville. Most of the girls schools are sponsored by a religious order. St. x is sponsored by the Xavieran Brothers. Trinity was founded by the Archdiocese but has been governed by an independent board for quite a few years. The number of kids at each school is determined by the number of kids that want to go to school there. I don't think any of them turn students away.

 

 

DeSales is run by the Carmalites.

[westsider]

I can't make kids play football at a public school. In NKY Dixie has 66 (10-12) players on their roster and Boone Co has 68 (10-12). Add in another 25 on the Frosh teams and you are approaching 100 in the programs. And Boone Co would have a lot more if Ryle High School hadn't been created.

But Trinity and St. Xavier don't have just 100 kids in the program. They have sometimes close to 250. St. Xavier brought 90-100 players to Bowling Green this year ... and all of them were juniors and seniors.

Highlands (one of the smallest 3A schools) year in and year out are just as good as Trinity and St. X in football. They usually dress 60-70 (10-12) players and are most often the best team in NKY out of all classes. How do they manage to overcome the numbers problem?

I doubt that Highlands, year in and year out, would be able to compete on equal terms with St. Xavier and Trinity. They have been able to in some years, usually when the Bluebirds are fielding one of their best teams.

[All Play No Work]

But Trinity and St. Xavier don't have just 100 kids in the program. They have sometimes close to 250. St. Xavier brought 90-100 players to Bowling Green this year ... and all of them were juniors and seniors.

I doubt that Highlands, year in and year out, would be able to compete on equal terms with St. Xavier and Trinity. They have been able to in some years, usually when the Bluebirds are fielding one of their best teams.

 

So St.X has a high level of participation and high numbers. That doesn't make them unbeatable. And it doesn't in any way prevent any other school from fielding a similar number of players. (See Cincinnati Colerain for a public school blue-print). I'm guessing that St. X has a high number of swimmers, golfers, cross-country runners too.

And Highlands is 3-3 lifetime against Trinity/St.X which is pretty fair for a small 3A public school.

 

So what's the solution? Let Trinity play St.X for the football championship every year and everyone else can play for the consolation trophy?

[westsider]

So St.X has a high level of participation and high numbers. That doesn't make them unbeatable.

No one is saying that it makes them unbeatable. It does, however, give them a considerable advantage.

And it doesn't in any way prevent any other school from fielding a similar number of players. (See Cincinnati Colerain for a public school blue-print).

Colerain has well over 2,000 kids in the school, too. And it isn't as if Colerain consistently challenges for the state title ... last year was their first in 25 years of Division I football. Perhaps they won because of an extraordinary run of talent.

 

Private schools have still won 15 of the 25 Division I titles on Ohio ... a percentage that is close to that of Kentucky's Class 4A. The only difference is that Ohio's titles are spread out between a few schools, not just two as is the case in Kentucky.

And Highlands is 3-3 lifetime against Trinity/St.X which is pretty fair for a small 3A public school.

Yes, it is. But, as I said earlier, I suspect most those years are when Highlands fields their best and most talented teams (the Smith-Lorenzen and Giudugli-Hamblen-Grover eras) ... the Bluebirds aren't playing them on a year-in, year-out basis.

[All Play No Work]

West,

 

Colerain won and has been competitive with the private schools recently because they have done many of the same thing as the private schools in developing feeder systems, high levels of participation, fund-raising, etc.

 

And Ohio has had 15 out of 25 D1 champs be private schools because there are more large private schools in Ohio than there are in KY (both in quantity and percentage-wise) and those schools along with some traditionally strong public schools dominate.

 

Why do you think Highlands only plays Trinity/St. X when they have a good team? Obviously, they did not this year. Highlands always has their best most talented team (just ask Dale) and they will play anybody anytime. That is another trait that other public schools should adopt.

 

Bottom-line is X and Trinity aren't going to have enrollment go down significantly so unless someone creates a football class for teams with over 2000 students in Kentucky they are always going to have more players.

[eville dad]

So is it time for a cap on 4a teams? A maximum number or students allowed at a school before they have to reclassify somehow. We have classifications up to 4A and if for example a school that is 2A outgrows its classification it becomes a 3A. Well what happens when 4A team gets to be to big? There is not a 5A to move into should the KHSAA establish a limit not to be exceeded to remain 4A? Since there is no 5A and its not practical for just 2 teams, should a team that exceeds the 4A limits consider more than one team to fit into the enrollment classifications. I dont think any teams, Private or Public like playing teams with twice as many students to choose from for athletics.

 

This would certainly keep everyone more competitive, which seems to be the ultimate goal and allow more playing time for the students at the largest schools.

[All Play No Work]

So is it time for a cap on 4a teams? A maximum number or students allowed at a school before they have to reclassify somehow. We have classifications up to 4A and if for example a school that is 2A outgrows its classification it becomes a 3A. Well what happens when 4A team gets to be to big? There is not a 5A to move into should the KHSAA establish a limit not to be exceeded to remain 4A? Since there is no 5A and its not practical for just 2 teams, should a team that exceeds the 4A limits consider more than one team to fit into the enrollment classifications. I dont think any teams, Private or Public like playing teams with twice as many students to choose from for athletics.

 

This would certainly keep everyone more competitive, which seems to be the ultimate goal and allow more playing time for the students at the largest schools.

 

Playing schools twice the size happens a lot in 1A. Top 1A schools have 530 kids, bottom 1A schools have less than half of that.

 

The difference is the largest 1A schools do not win the majority of championships.

 

Maybe a move to 5A would be prudent. But even then there would be "small" 5A schools playing "large" 5A schools.

[eville dad]

I understand about 1A and its at the extreme low end of the numbers and we could argue about proportionate size schools relative to the number of sports, but its not the point. The point is does the KHSAA and the member schools really want fair and equitable competition with mutually agreed upon opponents of similar size and abilities? If so its up to the KHSAA to monitor and manage this arrangement.

 

My argument is all theoretical because I dont have accurate figures but in theory isnt the whole idea about classification in high school sports to keep the schools as close in size as is reasonably possible to allow same size schools competing with one another. Does the KHSAA need to do a better job of monitoring and managing this aspect of high school sports?

 

There will always be the exception to the rule. I was talking with a friend about this subject tonite at the football game and he told me about his high school football team years ago in Northeastern Ohio of only 35 players, ranked #1 all season and finished #1 amongst all teams. Every so many years the 1A champ is going to be so good they could whoop all other class champions. So sometimes numbers dont matter at all, but the law of averages will determine that they do matter more than not and while the system is already in place, it may just need some maintenance now and then.