Should KHSAA expand State Tournament to 32 teams instead of 16 Region Champs?

[FrankNicodemus]

I saw several tweets out in Twitter universe from a few people that cover Kentucky High School sports discussing this topic.  I know with it being soccer post season time right now their comments are more around soccer but if it gets traction I would think KHSAA would have to lump in Basketball, Baseball, Volleyball sports as well.

For me I see the Pros and Cons on both sides of this coin.

The quick answer for someone will probably be well that takes away the importance of winning your Region if you allow the Region Runner Up to go to the State Tournament.  My come back is well you allow District Runner Ups to head to Regionals, what's different?

Here is my thought if you asked me how would it work:

I think you split the Region Winner and Runner Ups on different sides of the bracket just like they do for Regionals where they split up District Champs and Runner Ups so if they do meet it would be in the Finals.

Just like they are doing this year using the RPI's to award Home Field, you include one additional step where if the game is between a Region Champ vs a Region Runner Up, the Region Champ is awarded Home field regardless if the RPI for the Region Runner Up has a better RPI.

Side bar for Basketball b/c KHSAA couldn't gain more dates or afford renting Rupp for more days, the First Round of Basketball Tournament is at the 16 Region winners Home Court, prior to the Round of 16 -> Finals games at Rupp.  

The idea of including 16 Region Runner Ups to the State Tournament would also allow sort of a cleansing of teams that won't create a high level of competition in the State Tournament.

I could go on and on and on about these ideas but what say you?

I'm wondering if there has been a thread about this topic in the past @theguru?

I call this idea the whole MLB Wild Card idea, I think I saw an interview a few years back I believe it was with Joe Morgan talking about how he liked the MLB Wild Card logic b/c it GUARENTEES you that you potentially in the NLCS or the ALCS you will have the top 2 teams playing in that game regardless if those 2 teams came from the same division.  Why leave a team out of potentially playing for a State Title if they get beat by a team in the Region Finals if those 2 teams in that certain Region might be the BEST 2 teams in the State.  I realize the argument someone will come back with is, What makes you believe that if you get beat by the team in Region Championship game you could be them in State Finals.  It's sports, anything can happen!

I realize this being on the Girls High School thread it might not gain much traffic but who knows?

What say you?

 

[theguru]

1 minute ago, FrankNicodemus said:

I saw several tweets out in Twitter universe from a few people that cover Kentucky High School sports discussing this topic.  I know with it being soccer post season time right now their comments are more around soccer but if it gets traction I would think KHSAA would have to lump in Basketball, Baseball, Volleyball sports as well.

For me I see the Pros and Cons on both sides of this coin.

The quick answer for someone will probably be well that takes away the importance of winning your Region if you allow the Region Runner Up to go to the State Tournament.  My come back is well you allow District Runner Ups to head to Regionals, what's different?

Here is my thought if you asked me how would it work:

I think you split the Region Winner and Runner Ups on different sides of the bracket just like they do for Regionals where they split up District Champs and Runner Ups so if they do meet it would be in the Finals.

Just like they are doing this year using the RPI's to award Home Field, you include one additional step where if the game is between a Region Champ vs a Region Runner Up, the Region Champ is awarded Home field regardless if the RPI for the Region Runner Up has a better RPI.

Side bar for Basketball b/c KHSAA couldn't gain more dates or afford renting Rupp for more days, the First Round of Basketball Tournament is at the 16 Region winners Home Court, prior to the Round of 16 -> Finals games at Rupp.  

The idea of including 16 Region Runner Ups to the State Tournament would also allow sort of a cleansing of teams that won't create a high level of competition in the State Tournament.

I could go on and on and on about these ideas but what say you?

I'm wondering if there has been a thread about this topic in the past @theguru?

I call this idea the whole MLB Wild Card idea, I think I saw an interview a few years back I believe it was with Joe Morgan talking about how he liked the MLB Wild Card logic b/c it GUARENTEES you that you potentially in the NLCS or the ALCS you will have the top 2 teams playing in that game regardless if those 2 teams came from the same division.  Why leave a team out of potentially playing for a State Title if they get beat by a team in the Region Finals if those 2 teams in that certain Region might be the BEST 2 teams in the State.  I realize the argument someone will come back with is, What makes you believe that if you get beat by the team in Region Championship game you could be them in State Finals.  It's sports, anything can happen!

I realize this being on the Girls High School thread it might not gain much traffic but who knows?

What say you?

 

I am not sure Frank.  I would have to search for it just like anyone else.

[Voice of Reason]

@FrankNicodemus

You touched on a big, big factor in your post. Whatever options are proposed, it needs to mirror what happens in all other sports as much as possible. The KHSAA wants the same basic model in all sports.

[FrankNicodemus]

1 minute ago, Voice of Reason said:

@FrankNicodemus

You touched on a big, big factor in your post. Whatever options are proposed, it needs to mirror what happens in all other sports as much as possible. The KHSAA wants the same basic model in all sports.

Exactly!  Therefore this additional round must be played at Region Champs sites, thus it won't rock the boat on Rupp for Basketball and wherever they play the Baseball Tourney these days.  For soccer only the Final Four and Championship games are played at the final site, otherwise the other rounds are at the Top RPI schools.  No idea what the format is for Volleyball, is it like soccer? Where the games are played at schools up to Final Four then it goes somewhere special?

We are only talking 1 extra game (round).....

[The Double Deuce]

NO!!!!!!!

There is beauty to having to win your region to advance, and the occasional upset is a positive, not a negative.  A Regional Tournament should be win or go home, we already have the district tourney that advances teams after a loss, let's not perpetuate that further.

Win your region and move on, and embrace the beauty of upsets when they occur.  The best team doesn't always have to win, it's okay.

[FrankNicodemus]

21 minutes ago, The Double Deuce said:

NO!!!!!!!

There is beauty to having to win your region to advance, and the occasional upset is a positive, not a negative.  A Regional Tournament should be win or go home, we already have the district tourney that advances teams after a loss, let's not perpetuate that further.

Win your region and move on, and embrace the beauty of upsets when they occur.  The best team doesn't always have to win, it's okay.

Such a traditionalist! :)

I somewhat agree with you but also realize that it is a great topic to debate.

Here is why I would have the argument is b/c the skill level in all 16 Regions in multiple sports is so unbalanced its not even funny.  Let's take the Maher Rankings for instance as our measuring tool. If we used my criteria you would have 13 of the Top 16 teams in Maher going to the State Tournament, instead of currently you have 8 of the Top 16 teams making the State Tournament.  It just makes the State Tournament that much tougher!  I realize for the 7 out of 16 Regions that don't even have a Top 16 team in Maher as the Champion or Runner Up they would be the ones YELLING the loudest!

I am also thinking that an idea like this would gain some traction b/c of the fact Kentucky is still one of the very few states that is one size fits all when it comes to Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, Volleyball. We don't have class sizes or Public/Private segmentation when it comes to State Tournaments (unlike Football in Ky where we do).  Therefore, this just broadens the net of allowing more teams to join in the fun of a State Tournament experience......

 

[Voice of Reason]

14 minutes ago, FrankNicodemus said:

Such a traditionalist! 🙂

I somewhat agree with you but also realize that it is a great topic to debate.

Here is why I would have the argument is b/c the skill level in all 16 Regions in multiple sports is so unbalanced its not even funny.  Let's take the Maher Rankings for instance as our measuring tool. If we used my criteria you would have 13 of the Top 16 teams in Maher going to the State Tournament, instead of currently you have 8 of the Top 16 teams making the State Tournament.  It just makes the State Tournament that much tougher!  I realize for the 7 out of 16 Regions that don't even have a Top 16 team in Maher as the Champion or Runner Up they would be the ones YELLING the loudest!

I am also thinking that an idea like this would gain some traction b/c of the fact Kentucky is still one of the very few states that is one size fits all when it comes to Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, Volleyball. We don't have class sizes or Public/Private segmentation when it comes to State Tournaments (unlike Football in Ky where we do).  Therefore, this just broadens the net of allowing more teams to join in the fun of a State Tournament experience......

 

Track is split into 3 classes.

[Big Red]

Track, swimming, tennis, and golf are mostly individuals that qualify and move on.  I don't think that's a good comparison.  I think soccer,  basketball, baseball, and volleyball all line up to sweet sixteen of region winners.  If I had a vote, I would vote to expand to 32.  Why not?  More games, more gate money for schools, and look at the basketball tournament last year.  I think 5-6 of the top teams in the state did not qualify for the state tournament.  Soccer is same each year. 

[FrankNicodemus]

1 hour ago, Big Red said:

Track, swimming, tennis, and golf are mostly individuals that qualify and move on.  I don't think that's a good comparison.  I think soccer,  basketball, baseball, and volleyball all line up to sweet sixteen of region winners.  If I had a vote, I would vote to expand to 32.  Why not?  More games, more gate money for schools, and look at the basketball tournament last year.  I think 5-6 of the top teams in the state did not qualify for the state tournament.  Soccer is same each year. 

Exactly, a great comparison is like the March Madness in college basketball. There is a BIG reason that tournament includes not only Conf Champs but At Large teams. Just growing the tourney to pull potentially the greatest pool of BEST teams to win a covetted "State Title". The aurgument against expansion would make sense if there wasnt such a drastic difference in teams across all 16 Regions. Why penalize a team in the 7th, 9th or 11th Region when easily the top 2 teams in those Regions probably smoke THE Top team in probably 5 of the other Regions across the state.

Again we are talking 1 more game this is adding, no more.... But it could be adding SEVERAL top teams that could easily make it to the Elite 8, Final Four or even the Championship. Which might in turn grow the audiemce (gate money) when it gets to that part of the tourney.

I am sure this option would be FAR LESS painful then splitting these sports into classes like most states do.

[FrankNicodemus]

OK got another added suggestion to go along with either the Expansion of 32 or for you Traditionalists that want to keep it 16.

How about the KHSAA instituting a Sweet 16 "Bracket Committee" who will oversee a bracket that will try to prevent these big time games in the First or Second Round match ups and instead save these Big Time matchups to hopefully happen in the Semi or Finals.

You can't tell me that a group of say 3 or 5 adults wouldn't be able to sit in a room and study the body of work each team did in a season to come up with a better bracket than what they do today? My guess this process wouldn't take more than 4 hours to put together.

Here is another option if you are going to tell me that this committee wouldn't be able to turn around a bracket fast enough to have teams be able to prepare for travel if necessary.....

OK Problem, here is my solution.....

I believe the committee would be able to understand who the so called Region leader is at the end of Regular Season.  You then have the "Bracket Committee" put together a Bracket using the assumption of who "might" win the Regional Tournament.

For example, in Girls Soccer at the end of the Regular Season the "Bracket Committee" would probably assume NDA will win Region 9 so they go ahead and seed Region 9 as the #1 Seeded Region, but then say hypothetically Highlands pulls off the upset in Regionals well too bad Highlands would be rewarded with the #1 Seeded spot coming out of Region 9.  This solution would allow the "Bracket Committee" to publish a State Tournament bracket like they do prior to the Regional Tournaments so schools have a prediction of where/who they might play in the First Round.

 

[Big Red]

I can't imagine it would be painful to pull this off for soccer, basketball, baseball, and volleyball.  Yes, basketball has a certain unique stigma to its tournament.  Basketball could figure out a way to maintain the "stigma" of the sweat 16 tournament.  I agree there is a good amount of value in the effort to expand and make a few simple tweaks.