CentreTigers

How many votes does it take to be named to the first, second, third or honorable mention teams? I'm sure it varies, but I heard a few years back that it was possible for a player to receive 4-5 votes at a position and be awarded a first team slot. Is that really possible? Just wandering how the votes break down on average. I'm curious because I got in an argument, hmm hmm discussion, with a friend of mine who made the C-J all-State team 10-12 years ago. When I heard the "rumor" it took only a few votes to make the team, especially if there were many other players in the running, I quickly brought this to his attention. He disagreed when I pointed out that the 5 coaches from the schools in his "small pond" voted for him because they read about him in the local papers, or played him in a game. He began to argue, until I pointed out that his stats were half the totals of 4-5 other receivers in the Louisville, Lexington, Bowling Green and Northern Kentucky areas. Any help with this? Only a few votes can result in a selection? Myth or fact? Thanks in advance. I'm hoping someone with some "insider info" would be able to help.

As a tiger fan, I have to begrudingly agree with Trinity's impressive run. Ouch that hurt my fingers to type! Congrats Shamrocks!! I would like to take the opportunity to gang up with my fellow 6A school against those select Highlands fans who chose to play pirate on a thread about another team...surprise surprise!! Your school chooses to play up so either play up and stop pointing it out or play down and continue to bark. T and X could eliminate our 1200 or so students that don't have an athletic bone in their bodies, sprinkle in some coed cheerleaders and play 1a-5a and resemble a little school that is located in northern Kentucky. Everyone knows Highlands is good. We are well aware they play two divisions up and made aware of this on every thread that involves the word football. What percentage of ur male student body plays football? Probably off the charts. It's a football school with great tradition. Kids go there to specifically play football. Just like X and T. But the argument about size is played out and so is having to discuss the birds program on every thread. To the birds fans that read this who don't feel the need to highjack every thread...thanks for your decorum!

Great thread!! I believe there is much truth to this theory. Take Boone and Hardin counties as an example. I wonder if Boone and Hardin would compete with X and T if the didn't have other new schools diluting their talent pool? Uhhhh, yes!! Great for Ryle, Cooper and John Hardin but not good for the area's chances to compete. I think that this idea has more truth in why some teams are dominating and others can no longer compete. Didn't Boone barely lose to X and T in the state game just back in mid90's? Now it's blowout city. If Boone or Ryle had one team this year...look out!! The private schools continue to build their programs and the county schools decide to split their schools and build a new campus which only costs millions!! I guess there's where the facility improvement funds have gone. Again, great post. So, my question is this: why not build larger schools instead of creating two smaller schools? I think I just heard that Nelson Co. just approved another county school. Seriously?

I understand and can agree with you about smaller schools having a difficult time competing for the title in those sports. So it's fathomable for the small schools to win baseball and basketball? Just questioning why it's good for the goose and not the gander!

In my opinion, the six class system will stay in place for 8-10 years before another wave of change comes. X and T will battle it out for every single championship, with Ryle, SK, Male, Manual and possibly Ballard giving chase but not turning the corner. Highlands will win the majority of the 5A titles with BG and John Hardin trying to cut them down every year, with little succes. Central will continue to improve and will take the majority of 3A titles. 1A, 2A and 4A will be more open. After 5-7 years of this playing out, momentum will build causing an outcry for a new system. Although I'm not sure what will be the substitute, I feel strongly that there will be an 'open' class where programs can volunteer to play in a super class and all others will have a chance to remain classified by enrollment. Some schools won't have a choice to be in the open class, I.e. Large private schools and open enrollment public schools. I'm not looking to argue this point, just saying that I think this will be the direction of KHSAA after a long period of sustained dominance by a handful of teams. My counter point would be our basketball tournament. Because no team has dominated the title game and smaller schools doing well in the tournament, we have stuck with one class. Baseball is the same. Let one or two big city teams start dominating these sports and we will see a change in these tournaments as well. I do have one question though: why is track, cross country and football divided by class, but the others are not? I can see an argument for football being made but not with any other sport. Any help? I mean, why is track and cross country divided but not baseball or basketball?

I agree that Highlands, X and Trinity should schedule games with each other on a yearly basis. Just like all three should continue to play the TN, OH and IN powers as well. It makes for much greater football and a lot of fun, including the pre and post game bantarring that would take place. I believe they eventually will do this as more and more scoops push to exile these three from competing against the "underprivilaged" teams in the state. Mainly the publics which continually fuss about their own disadvantages instead of doing something about it as Ryle, SK, Boyle, Central and Ft. Campbell have succeeded in doing recently. Everyone seems to forget the powerhouse teams that exist today always had the same circumstances that are called unfair by others yet they didn't always rule the roost back in the 70-80's. It was planted, watered and harvested over a long period of time. The big 3 should and will begin to realize, IMO, that they have great competative spirit and with that comes animosity for one another, but they have much more in common in their quest to continue their respective traditions. It's easy to hate the Yankees, Patriots and Duke but people loathe them because they have built a dynasty worthy of envy. Other teams can sit around and whine or do something about it...maybe like Tampa Bay Rays, Minnesota Vikings or Donovan's Gators. I firmly believe that X, T and the Birds will eventually be castout by the fickle mob and have to play a separate playoff. However, they will also benefit from this as well by playing a regional schedule and getting much more national exposure...which will only add to their program's succes. Why not be proactive and start scheduling each other now? My congrats to those teams, and a few others...Lone Oak I forgot to add you to the list...that I mentioned above. U are building your program. You aren't complaining about what you don't have or can't do and you will only see increases success in the future. Just remember that once you reach a certain level of achievement, people will begin to question your coaches, recruitment and may even try to get you removed from the status quo of mediocrity. But then you can schedule games with the other outcasts!! Now that would be fun. Sure, dominating recess dodgeball is a blast but taking your lumps as a froshman in high school sports can be rewarding if u are willing to grow!! Last, would all of you St. X, Trinity and Highlands' fans stop throwing so many stones at each other. Most of these alumni who went to these schools and played college ball or worked with each other in the real world find much more that they have in common and laugh at those who think the 'other side' is secretly part of Darth Vader's dark side. Enjoy your coaches and the rivalry but leave out the finger pointing directed to the other side. I have found myself caught up in that mindset before and laugh to myself about some of the things I have said or even written on here. Try to fight the negativity that grasps our media and enjoy the game we all love.

Alan60, these threads are hilarious! Probably some of the funniest threads I have read on BGP in a while. U should add some icing on the cake and create a "highlands versus Indianapolis colts-can the birds stop Payton Manning?" thread! I bet you would get some bites on that one too. Well played!!

Agree with Catfish - 20-25,000 would turn out for a Louisville showdown. I think no more than 8-10,000 will attend the BG version. My approximate math calculations say that this decision will have an $80-100,000 opportunity cost in attendance for this game alone (ticket prices about $8?). Plus I would guess the extra time driving for the northern and eastern Kentucky fans will yield even higher losses. IMHO, the championships should never leave the central location of Louisville. We can all do the math after it's over though. This won't be like arguing if trinity, saint x or highlands is the best team in Kentucky. The math will let us know if this decision was a smart move.

52-10...any Ryle fans have comments about what they saw tonight versus the Tigers? I thought Ryle was a nice team but the X guys are playing at a different speed than Ryle has seen even against the country's #1 team Highlands. What were your observations, Ryle fans?

Remember as I ramble...I'm a St. X fan. But...people forget how special Tim Phillips was. I can't wait to see his career turn into a pro career. He was superman and a difference maker in the 'up and coming' Rocks' argument about trophys versus life lessons. I will never argue that the process of a football season has no life lessons, but I will say that I hope Tom Jurich looks at Beattt and Co. for our U of L program. Great x and o coaches. Masterful job of preparing 16-19 for the playoffs but ordinary, non football opinions are not aware of the element of luck and momentum in game outcomes. Think about this...2005...game deciding roughing the passer against petrino called against St. X and it nullifies INT for St. X on game deciding td drive. 2006, Rocks are really really good. Beat Male. Well played. 2007, field goal away from a trophy. 2008, one score game. Great win by Rocks. Deuce Finch held out of game by concussion at the halfway point of third quarter. Oh, don't forget the Brian Brohm era. Count another 3 point trophy in 2003. This isn't about choking. It's football. Trinity Shamrocks, as it used to be traditionally called before the Beatty era, have more football brass but they are about one flag, three feet and one tim Phillips away from a different reality. I would easily trade my St. X twin trophies and rings just to hear Mike Glaser address his losing teams in 2003, 2005-2008. Trinity coaches play to win. No denying that or the potential lessons therewithin. Saint X will never go outside the family to find a coach who can out x and o the opponent. Good or bad, it's loyalty to the 'system' that separates the two schools and will continue to perplex parents that are smothered between deciding what's important in high school education and what will produce instant gratification. Win or lose in December, I will take the mentor versus offensive guru approach. But U of L could sure use some offensive behavior!! Beatty, Beatty, Beatty!!!

The call was made on the field so no sour grapes whatsoever, but if the kid caught the ball and crossed the plain it's a touchdown. Since it was ruled a fumble I assume that was the official's interpretation. Where's highschool jv booth review when you need it!! It was a fun game and great atmosphere regardless. There had to be a few thousand fans onhand.

Not sure about the varsity starter argument but I am sure if one thing: Trinity 34-0 as frosh. Trinity by 1 in overtime the following year on the next level. The gap is closing quickly on one of the gratest frosh classes in Trinity history.

Noe, fredericks and tenzca looking pretty good during the jv game. Tune up for Friday night?

Time?

I am anxiously awaiting the inevitable "Wow, this Cincy Saint X team is big, fast and strong" comments that are soon to come once this game kicksoff. Its a right of passage as far as I'm concerned. The Louisville Saint X fans went through it. The Trinity fans went through it...now it's Highlands in the barrel! I'm not sure the weather bodes well for the 'birds against the Big Ten type team that is going to grind it out on the ground. But that's why we play the game. Hats off to the Kentucky team for taking on this monumental task. I hope they win, so Kentucky football can get some regional respect, but having seen the Cincy Saint X team in action...the folk lore is true and I'm afraid the 'birds need a divine intervention. I'll be anxiously awaiting the Highlands' fans comments regarding what they see in action. It's a machine.

I don't think you are too far off...I would venture 38-10 with the X scoring all of their points in the first half and Highlands scoring all of theirs in the second half against the 3rd string of Cincy Saint X. Yes, X really is as good as advertised.

I think the criteria question is actually worth discussing! Here's a scenario to consider: Player A (end of season stats): 225 carries, 1800 yards and 24 touchdowns and wins a state championship while playing a schedule that is loaded with top 20 caliber teams (as in a kid from Trinity, Manual, Saint X, Highlands, etc.) Player B (end of season stats): 390 carries, 3500 yards and 40 touchdowns and doesn't win a state championship while playing a below average strength of schedule. Who is more worthy? This is a similar argument to the Heisman Trophy in College football, with the same difficulty in evaluating a player's worthiness. The reason I ask? The majority of the kids offered up in the vote fall in category "Player B" while there are quite a few players who would qualify in category "Player A" are not mentioned, aside from Collinsworth and Tim Patterson. And obviously, a defensive player or offensive lineman would have to get "Dennis or Micah Johnson" type coverage starting as a Freshman to even be considered for the award (just like the Heisman). So...for the sake of discussion: How does strength of schedule versus gaudy stats weigh in on the decision. In my mind, at the end of the day, since it only requires a relatively small number of votes to be on the all-state team (in some cases as few as 6-8 votes for a single player), I believe that the more "campaiging" that goes on for a particular player will only help his chances...regardless of strength of schedule. Also, IMO, after looking over the past few years of all-state members, I find that small town "super stars" have an advantage over the kids in the larger markets such as Bowling Green, Lexington and Louisville because these Big School Teams don't have a single player who sticks out in the mind of voters and their numbers suffer due to the competition. Which is contrasted to the kids who are "big fish in a small pond" and everyone around the pond hears nothing but folk stories about how great he is. I have a great example of this "about" ten years ago...a junior WR for a team around the central kentucky area had around 60 receptions for 990 yards and a about 15 touchdowns but was thrown the ball 10-15 times a game and didn't play a difficult schedule until the playoffs and was shutdown at that point. He made first team all-state. Decent numbers. His senior year...he had about 50 receptions for 600 yards and 10 touchdowns (same end of season result). The other two WR's selected doubled all of those stats and came out of programs who played tougher schedules but still not exceptionally tough. My point: politics, politics, politics! Numerous other players in the are (Louisville) had better stats and were not even in the running. While the Big Fish in a small pond was a hometown hero and the multiple markets directly around him KNEW THE NAME come voting time. I think they should make a watch-list for each position and update it at the beginning, middle third, second third and end of the season...and then provide a final list to vote from. Sounds like a lot of work, but there are so many media outlets these days (combined with the internet) that this would not be that difficult. You could even use the all-district/all-region teams...narrow it down with a vote and then post schedules and stats for the finalists. Food for thought...now discuss!

With all due respect (and without seeing Highlands play this season) I can't see this game even being close...even IF highlands is clicking on all cylinders. I watched as Cincy St. X's corners (6'1-6'3" range) pressed and jammed Louisville Saint X's receivers all over the field. I watched the Big Ten sized linebackers run down running backs and quarterbacks that run 4.5-4.6 forty yard dashes. I watched a defensive line dominate the line of scrimmage. I watched an absolutely monstrous and mobile offensive line creating holes that a truck can drive through. And I watched a sophomore running back who runs with power and finesse and can catch the ball. I think I watched the number one team in the country dismantle Louisville Saint Xavier...and they (Cincy St. X) had multiple turnovers in doing so. Oh, they also have a 6'5" quarterback who can throw darts to receivers that are tall and fast. I'm trying to be realistic, as I don't have a dog in the fight, but the Highlands faithful have a serious reality check coming due on Friday night. I'm sure Highlands will have a tremendous season and probably win state but to suggest that Highlands will be in this game is a stretch. You don't struggle to beat Louisville Manual and then go beat the number one team in the country a few weeks later. Just like Louisville Saint X and Trinity found out...play the game...learn from it...and get better. I salute Highlands for taking the challenge. I'm just excited to see how Highlands fares againt this team. We will at least be able to have an educated discussion regarding the best team in Kentucky after this week. All three BIG BOY schools play Cincy Saint X in back to back to back weeks. It should be fun!!

St. X got opening kickoff and drove on 10 plays for the first score. Highlands returned kickoff for their first. St. X went on 4th and 6 from their own 35 and were stopped. Tiger defense appeared to hold the birds but were called for pass interference. Highlands finished the drive to go up 12-6. St. X changed qbs and had a run of long passes for a couple scores aided by highlands turnovers and a nice hurry up passing game. It appeared to be on the verge of getting out of hand but the birds did a great job in second half. Then an hour delay for a fire alarm. No, that is not a joke. Highlands scores on a long drive early in fourth quarter and tigers can't run much clock. Final drive was a classic. Birds march, face third and long at least 4 times. Execute 35 yard half back pass and punch it in. They go for two and tigers smother the counter trap. Gutsy call by coaches but smart decision, IMO. A shame either team had to lose. Too many great plays and players to mention for both sides but the other posts and refs are correct...these two teams could matchup with many varsity squads. And win. The entire highlands experience was a class act. 5A beware for the next four years. That frosh team won't play a close game the rest of their season, IMO.

I really like this method for trying to discuss this topic...if anyone would like to put the Saint X statistics VERSUS "insert your favorite school"...I think this would be a healthy way to debate the validity behind his or her argument. I don't know how you would find that information. ...although I would add one side note...it is difficult to compare the athletic program of one school to another when a co-ed school has nearly twice as many opportunities to field a successful team...so should we use a calculus formula to decide what percentage of teams fielded were successful? ha ha ...that's a joke by the way. In my opinion, SI probably didn't spend a large amount of time researching 20 win seasons and district champions...they probably just counted the total number of state championships won and went from there...so...if school won more than 4 team championships...then probably they really do have an argument about having a better athletic program than St. X.

EasyPro, You really do follow the program well...nice call on Anthony Boggs...what an athlete! But they had quite a few excellent players that year and were destined to win the championship...I still feel bad for the Dunbar kicker who missed the extra point in overtime to give NC the win! As for the rain, if Saint X grinds it out...winning the game will still be a tall order. I think if Nelson county can not turn the ball over at all, excel in the special teams, get a few breaks from the football Gods and cause X to make some mental errors (turnovers, penalties, etc)...the score will be X 28 NC 14. X has too much firepower all around. And on a good day, I do firmly believe that a (healthy) X JV would be a competitive game with NC. I just hope it doesn't rain...cold and rain is no fun for the fans...but the turf does make the game much more stable...therefore, just the slick ball will be an issue. Cutting on that stuff in the rain is just like if it were dry. That is why, IMO if X or T have to play a game against a quality team on a sloppy natural grass field...the game will be much closer than anticipated...see the Oldham county versus Saint X game for reference...and it stopped raining before the game even started.

GoRocks! I would love to pay you for the time and DVD if you wouldn't mind...I think that is such a very generous offer! Please let me know how to proceed...if you are willing to make a DVD copy like you suggested in your post. I would be willing to pay you in advance. Us Tiger and Rocks fans can trust each other off the gridiron!

I am not sure if you can use the score of a common opponent to adequately dissect the "theoretical" matchup of the Bluebirds versus the Tigers; however, it does give one solid indication...it would be one heck of a game and really fun for the players, coaches and fans! Appears to me like the Birds could give the Tigers a run for their money, if not have a chance to pull out a win. Would love to see these two coaching staffs scheme against one another (regardless of the silly claim that 1400 boys versus 400 students is a crutch...as if the other 1200 boys were football or even moderately of mediocre athletic caliber). Its the Birds best 11 on the field against the Tigers best 11...and it would be a GREAT GAME for football fans. Since we have 6 classes, maybe we can schedule an all-star game, pitting the winner of 5A (duh, highlands) versus 6A (trinity or X)...have it at a neutral field...maybe Commonwealth Stadium and have Tennessee officials come in an ref the game...and maybe Collinsworth could pull a few strings and announce the televised version...he is one of the BEST in the business and would be professional enough to remain unbiased...we'll let him wear a Bluebirds t-shirt though! ...just me dreaming out loud!

WOW!!! I thought this was a first class production and great exposure for these two programs and kentucky football, in general. Any comments on the coverage, teams, coaches, plays, players, game strategy, etc.?

Thanks, Eta Rho...I really appreciate the insight! Go tigers! That CBS film special was something else! Really, really high class for both programs. Would have been really cool if they did a double feature and came back to cover the rematch! Hopefully, the rematch will be similar, but Trinity is too good of a program with too many weapons to be shut out again...I say shut out...because according to the nfl footage and the generous BGP pictures that MASSIVE collision on the goal line where trinity "scored" was not a touchdown and called by a ref from 7 yards behind the play with no angle to see the football. Trinity will come back with a totally new offensive game plan, play their most athletic 15 players both ways and cut down on their turnovers...it should make for a fun game. I just hope that the saint x staff can try to "predict" what the shamrocks will do to add wrinkles to the offense...like when they rolled out of the pocket in the 07 state game and setup the quarterback outside the ends (as a passing pocket) so the X defensive lineman would have to beat their man (as they did in the 07 regular season game) find the quarter back and get to him before he finds his receiver in the flat...a great game plan change and helped render the saint x defensive lineman ineffective (180 degree turn from the regular season game). Really excited to see this game. Saint X needs to start watching offensive game film from the 1920's up through the texas tech spread offense to be ready for the trinity offensive changes! OR just man up and physically beat the man across from you on every play! Should be a classic...hope the weather holds up so we have a big turn out. Just think, in a few years, Trinity and Saint X will get to meet in BG for the state final and the KHSAA will get to collect about 50% less revenue year in and year out...I estimate that the usual fan attendance at a state championship between these two schools to average 20K, while only 10K will drive to BG. Therefore, at ($8???) per ticket, in ten years the KHSAA will lose $800,000 just in ticket sales! Not a very smart move, economically speaking. Probably for another thread though, but I thought I would stick it out there as food for thought.