Clean Air or Banning Smoking

[ladiesbballcoach]

You have no clear, inalienable right to enjoy freedom from tobacco smoke on somebody else's property. You do have total freedom not to place yourself at risk by entering such privately owned establishments. I do not understand how people can be so dismissive of other people's property rights. Nobody is keeping you from protecting your lungs.

 

And I find it equally troubling that you want certain groups of people to live like hermits and not come out in publically so that others can have full freedom to do whatever they wish to do in public.

 

I will say this, I believe that businesses who are open for the public with the mindset of serving the whole public should operate under a different mindset than private clubs and the like.

 

If a business advertises for all to come in and patron their business, that is different than having a private club on your property.

 

Meaning I would not hold a restaurant at a country club underneath the same mindset as Applebee's.

[ladiesbballcoach]

It's not when that speech is used to bully governmental bodies into action, the way the smoking ban advocates do. Both are used to motivate an imposition on others' personal liberties.

 

Or the way smoker's have done in keeping the right to smoke in restaurants?

[coldweatherfan]

Taking away business owners' rights is apples and oranges????:confused:

 

I am not talking about smoking here, but asking you "are there times that taking away a business owner's rights is the correct thing to do?"

 

Do we have to have laws? Of course we do. They are not all the same. Smoking is a legal activity. I'm pretty sure all of the items you mentioned are illegal for individuals as well as businesses. Another difference is, those things were forced on people they could not be avoided. Restaurants that allow smoking can be avoided. IMO smoking bans are a way of legislating someones choice.

 

Restaurants are not public property. They are private businesses that serve the public. There is a difference. They are responsive to their customers if they want to continue to make a profit.

 

No one is forced to go to them. Everyone as a customer can choose to go or not go to them. I choose not to go to certain restaurants and bars because their air handling systems are not up to my standards. I do choose to support restaurants and bars that are nonsmoking.

[GaViking]

Not true, but hyperbole to spur up the smoking crowd and get them fired up.

 

I don't believe this for one second.

[Theoldguy]

You know the way some of you talk, I wonder why I can't drive my car at any speed I want to. Why do I have to stop at a stop sign, why do I have to stop at a red light, why do I have to wear a seat belt, it's my life, it's my car, I help pay for the roads, so why do I have to obey the law? And don't go telling me apples and oranges, rules are rules, and some of you just don't like some rules, while other rules you can live with...

 

If and only if NKy was the first place to start the non smoking movement, if and only if it wasn't proven else where that it didn't hurt business, if and only if it wasn't proven that second hand smoke was dangerous, and if and only if in years past business owners always did what was best for the general public instead of in their own self interests, then I wouldn't feel so strong about my supporting the smoking ban in Boone, Kenton and Campbell Counties.

[AcesFull]

The effects of secondhand smoke whether on one's own property or into a city air is the same. Such an act has a detrmiental effect well beyond the business's own property because secondhand smokes works its way into public air and/or into other's lungs.

 

Good bolded statement with a good argument. I have changed a few of the nouns and phrasing around to make a similar argument.:thumb:

I recently purchased a ceramic grill that I use to prepare foods like pulled pork and barbecued chicken. If the wind blows just right and my neighbors are located in just the right position, they can undoubtedly detect the sweet smell of apple wood and hardwood lump charcoal burning. Does my neighbor have the right to demand that I not use my grill? Does a person on the other side of town have the right to shutdown my grill because it releases CO2 and probably a bit of CO as well? Is there any point on the planet where smoke becomes diluted enough that you would not feel threatened by it?

 

In the past, the burden of proof has been on the person making the kind of complaints that you have made. You and other who oppose the rights of restaurant owners seem to want to shift the burden to a private property owner to prove that activity on his or her own property does not constitute a hazard to somebody living across town.

 

The link between occasional exposure to small amounts of second hand smoke and lung diseases is tenuous at best but the danger to personal property rights is very real.

 

I have a difficult time believing that you are serious that tobacco smoke escaping from a restaurant into the open air poses a hazard to the entire community. Are you serious, and if not why not address the property rights that you propose taking away from restaurant owners in a serious manner?

[thegooch]

I recently purchased a ceramic grill that I use to prepare foods like pulled pork and barbecued chicken. If the wind blows just right and my neighbors are located in just the right position, they can undoubtedly detect the sweet smell of apple wood and hardwood lump charcoal burning. Does my neighbor have the right to demand that I not use my grill? Does a person on the other side of town have the right to shutdown my grill because it releases CO2 and probably a bit of CO as well? Is there any point on the planet where smoke becomes diluted enough that you would not feel threatened by it?

 

In the past, the burden of proof has been on the person making the kind of complaints that you have made. You and other who oppose the rights of restaurant owners seem to want to shift the burden to a private property owner to prove that activity on his or her own property does not constitute a hazard to somebody living across town.

 

The link between occasional exposure to small amounts of second hand smoke and lung diseases is tenuous at best but the danger to personal property rights is very real.

 

I have a difficult time believing that you are serious that tobacco smoke escaping from a restaurant into the open air poses a hazard to the entire community. Are you serious, and if not why not address the property rights that you propose taking away from restaurant owners in a serious manner?

 

The American Lung Association might have something to say about this..

[AcesFull]

You know the way some of you talk, I wonder why I can't drive my car at any speed I want to. Why do I have to stop at a stop sign, why do I have to stop at a red light, why do I have to wear a seat belt, it's my life, it's my car, I help pay for the roads, so why do I have to obey the law? And don't go telling me apples and oranges, rules are rules, and some of you just don't like some rules, while other rules you can live with...

:lol: More bad analogies from the smoking police. If you own the highway, the stop signs, and the property on which they are located, then you should be free to ignore any road sign and drive at whatever speed you want. (I always wear a seatbelt when I drive but I strongly believe that seatbelt laws are an infringement on personal liberty.)

 

If and only if NKy was the first place to start the non smoking movement, if and only if it wasn't proven else where that it didn't hurt business, if and only if it wasn't proven that second hand smoke was dangerous, and if and only if in years past business owners always did what was best for the general public instead of in their own self interests, then I wouldn't feel so strong about my supporting the smoking ban in Boone, Kenton and Campbell Counties.

Why should you, I, or a private business be required to do only what is in the best interest of the general public and who is qualified to judge what is in the best interest of the general public? Elected politicians who have never run businesses? Government lawyers?

 

Businesses do benefit the general public but people do not generally risk their money to create an enterprise whose top goal is to benefit the general public. That is not the purpose of a business. Businesses are created to make profits and provide a livelihood for their owners. The fact that they generate jobs, produce taxable income, and provide goods and services that some in the general public find worthwhile are just some of the many side benefits of privately owned businesses, including restaurants.

 

Government should have as small a role as possible in regulating privately owned businesses. Telling a restaurant owner that (s)he must prohibit smoking on his own property is the kind of micromanagement typically found in socialist countries but becoming much too common in our own country.

[AcesFull]

The American Lung Association might have something to say about this..

Really? Show me the link between occasional exposure to second hand smoke and lung cancer. Show me the link between second hand smoke escaping from restaurants on non-smokers living across town who have no other exposure. (We are not talking about the kind of exposure typical among people who choose occupations such as bartenders, who are exposed to the smoke on a frequent basis.)

 

If you find that the American Lung Association has proven such links, please post the information. Simply speculating that a such a link migh exist does not make it so.

 

Thanks.

[thegooch]

Really? Show me the link between occasional exposure to second hand smoke and lung cancer. Show me the link between second hand smoke escaping from restaurants on non-smokers living across town who have no other exposure. (We are not talking about the kind of exposure typical among people who choose occupations such as bartenders, who are exposed to the smoke on a frequent basis.)

 

If you find that the American Lung Association has proven such links, please post the information. Simply speculating that a such a link migh exist does not make it so.

 

Thanks.

 

This is really what I was talking about...

 

Its not the ALA but its something for now link

Edited July 20, 2008 by thegooch
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[GaViking]

You know the way some of you talk, I wonder why I can't drive my car at any speed I want to. Why do I have to stop at a stop sign, why do I have to stop at a red light, why do I have to wear a seat belt, it's my life, it's my car, I help pay for the roads, so why do I have to obey the law? And don't go telling me apples and oranges, rules are rules, and some of you just don't like some rules, while other rules you can live with...

 

If and only if NKy was the first place to start the non smoking movement, if and only if it wasn't proven else where that it didn't hurt business, if and only if it wasn't proven that second hand smoke was dangerous, and if and only if in years past business owners always did what was best for the general public instead of in their own self interests, then I wouldn't feel so strong about my supporting the smoking ban in Boone, Kenton and Campbell Counties.

Well while everyone is on the non-smoking bandwagon, please promote helmet's for a motorcycle rider. I have to where a seat belt, my child had to wear a helmet to ride a bike when the speed limit was 15 mph. Do something about the crappy smog in the area.

[AcesFull]

This is really what I was talking about...

 

Its not the ALA but its something for now link

 

Nothing there that I can see concerning the kind of occasional exposure as would come from smelling smoke drifting from a non-smoking section. Is there something buried in the study itself? I

 

These meta-analyses show that there is a statistically significant and consistent association between lung cancer risk in spouses of smokers and exposure to secondhand tobacco smoke from the spouse who smokes. The excess risk is of the order of 20% for women and 30% for men and remains after controlling for some potential sources of bias and confounding. The excess risk increases with increasing exposure. Furthermore, other published meta-analyses of lung cancer in never-smokers exposed to secondhand tobacco smoke at the workplace have found a statistically significant increase in risk of 12–19%. This evidence is sufficient to conclude that involuntary smoking is a cause of lung cancer in never-smokers. The magnitudes of the observed risks are reasonably consistent with predictions based on studies of active smoking in many populations.

If you find something that shows a link between occasional exposure to secondhand smoke by non-smokers married to non-smoking spouses - and who are not frequently exposed to smoke in the workplace, please post it. This study does not do it.

[Run To State]

Smokers have a choice as well. Go to restaurants that allow it or smoke outside and not while they eat.

 

the solutions is simple.

We're not in disagreement here at all. MY only point is to not make ALL the restaurants smoke free unless that's the way the owner wants it.

[Run To State]

How is that?

 

I would be against banning smoking in total. That should be a person's right to kill themselves in that manner.

 

But I shouldn't to have a lower quality of life (giving up enjoying the benefits of society) because of another person's choice.

 

Again.

Smokers can go out to eat if they choose.

Non-smokers who are allergic to cigarette smoke cannot.

By expecting ALL restaurants to be smoke free.

You want others to to have a lower quality of life (giving up enjoying the benefits of society) because of your choice. You want it all your way, that's just not right.

 

Those that are allergic to smoke most certainly can go out to eat if they choose, they have plenty of smoke free restaurants to choose from.

[Run To State]

The American Lung Association might have something to say about this..

 

This is really what I was talking about...

 

Its not the ALA but its something for now link

As I said to another poster in the other thread, I hope you don't grill out, it's far worse.