Ref Bashing

[atm10]

Yes, you are correct but when you break down the amount of hours it takes to be successful and then divide it by your stipend, coaches are making sweatshop wages. I understand most coaches don't do it for the money, its a vocation like one of the posters said about most referees. I think what red cross is trying to say is that it is a way more lucrative venture to be a referee than a coach. Knowing that referee's are making more money and putting in a fourth of the hours is frustrating and you expect them to know the rules and preform their duties.

 

How do you know this? And f.y.i all equipment, clothing, travel, camps and any out of pocket expense is fully paid for by the referee him/herself. I know of about 50 referee's that just two weekends ago spent $230 camp cost, 3 nights hotel, and gas money for a 4 day clinic in Lexington.

[steelcurtain]

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How do you know this? And f.y.i all equipment, clothing, travel, camps and any out of pocket expense is fully paid for by the referee him/herself. I know of about 50 referee's that just two weekends ago spent $230 camp cost, 3 nights hotel, and gas money for a 4 day clinic in Lexington.

 

I know two JV officials that clear over 7 thousand for the year summer included. That is more than most varsity coaches, and 3 and 4 times more than their assistants. I think they can afford paying for these clinics and hopefully they learn a few things why they are down there.

[Under the Lights]

I know two JV officials that clear over 7 thousand for the year summer included. That is more than most varsity coaches, and 3 and 4 times more than their assistants. I think they can afford paying for these clinics and hopefully they learn a few things why they are down there.

 

This is not uncommon. However, it is also not uncommon for these guys to spend every single ENTIRE weekend 8-12 hrs a day, refereeing basketball. Sure, a summer coach may have one or two games in a day, but certainly they aren't coaching all day or the entire weekend?

 

As far as compensation; the only thing I could add is that the referees have a lot more out of pocket costs than coaches do. Basketball is probably the cheapest sport to get into, but even there you can spend a pretty penny before you even get started. On the other hand coaches usually don't have to pay for anything out of pocket, and in fact they often get apparel for free that is paid for with school funds.

 

Regardless, both of these vocations EARN their money (probably deserve more). There just aren't many people that would be willing to donate the amount of time that coaches and officials put in, not to mention at the rate they are compensated for that time.

[steelcurtain]

This is not uncommon. However, it is also not uncommon for these guys to spend every single ENTIRE weekend 8-12 hrs a day, refereeing basketball. Sure, a summer coach may have one or two games in a day, but certainly they aren't coaching all day or the entire weekend?

As far as compensation; the only thing I could add is that the referees have a lot more out of pocket costs than coaches do. Basketball is probably the cheapest sport to get into, but even there you can spend a pretty penny before you even get started. On the other hand coaches usually don't have to pay for anything out of pocket, and in fact they often get apparel for free that is paid for with school funds.

Regardless, both of these vocations EARN their money (probably deserve more). There just aren't many people that would be willing to donate the amount of time that coaches and officials put in, not to mention at the rate they are compensated for that time.

 

I know of all kinds of teams that play for entire weekends or weeks at a time. Last year we were gone on a 14 day road trip.....while all programs don't go to these extremes it really propelled are program into a great deal of success this past season. As far as out of pocket costs, my pocket gets alot emptier when the team heads on the road. Coaches often have to pay for several players meals that don't have any money to eat. A wise coach once told me a great piece of advice.....If you don't have enough money in your pocket to buy everybody's dinner, don't stop the bus.

[atm10]

I know of all kinds of teams that play for entire weekends or weeks at a time. Last year we were gone on a 14 day road trip.....while all programs don't go to these extremes it really propelled are program into a great deal of success this past season. As far as out of pocket costs, my pocket gets alot emptier when the team heads on the road. Coaches often have to pay for several players meals that don't have any money to eat. A wise coach once told me a great piece of advice.....If you don't have enough money in your pocket to buy everybody's dinner, don't stop the bus.

 

This is the example you came up with? That's apples to oranges by comparision. Though you may not have, I am sure some coaches turn those expenses in and are reimbursed. I am not saying a referee can't make some money but your blanket statement that they make more than coaches isn't based on fact.

[steelcurtain]

This is the example you came up with? That's apples to oranges by comparision. Though you may not have, I am sure some coaches turn those expenses in and are reimbursed. I am not saying a referee can't make some money but your blanket statement that they make more than coaches isn't based on fact.

 

It's 100% based on fact. Look up coaches stipends, and then get back to me. With the exceptions of huge schools like Scott County you show me stipends that range from 10-15 thousand and I'll agree with you. After looking around I would say that the average is between 5 to 8 thousand. If a JV ref can make over 7 thousand, Is it safe to say that a varsity official stands to make more money?

No, you can't turn these expenses in to be reimbursed according to the red book. What about all of the scouting trips, where gas mileage is not reimbursed? It sounds like you are assuming, on how much out of pocket coaches have. :thumb:

Edited June 30, 2008 by STRIKE3
edited

[atm10]

It's 100% based on fact. Look up coaches stipends, and then get back to me. With the exceptions of huge schools like Scott County you show me stipends that range from 10-15 thousand and I'll agree with you. After looking around I would say that the average is between 5 to 8 thousand. If a JV ref can make over 7 thousand, Is it safe to say that a varsity official stands to make more money?

No, you can't turn these expenses in to be reimbursed according to the red book. What about all of the scouting trips, where gas mileage is not reimbursed? It sounds like you are assuming, on how much out of pocket coaches have. :thumb:

 

Find out what the JV officials made in season. I would guess the majority of the earnings came from what they did during the summer and not school ball. Also, varsity vs. JV during the summer doesn't matter, the fee will be the same unlike the school year where yes, the varsity makes a bit more per game. Also, depends on the regions as they all pay differently. Also, where are you coming up with the 10-15 thousand number?:confused:

[Clyde]

Steelcurtain - I'm not sure what you are aguing. Are you saying refs make too much money? Are you saying coaches should be paid more than officials?

[atm10]

Yes, you are correct but when you break down the amount of hours it takes to be successful and then divide it by your stipend, coaches are making sweatshop wages. - SteelCurtain

 

An example from a jv official I spoke to. Let's say JV game begins at 6:30 pm. Most are at the game site 45 minutes prior which is 5:45 pm. Factor in drive time in this area with a generous 30 minutes and he leaves the house at 5:15 pm. Game time of 1 hour and 15 minutes and we are approximately at 7:45. If with showering and changing and back home in 30 minutes it would be 8:15pm. He told me those are conservative estimates. So for 3 hours of his time he made $40.00. You do the math.

[steelcurtain]

Yes, you are correct but when you break down the amount of hours it takes to be successful and then divide it by your stipend, coaches are making sweatshop wages. - SteelCurtain

 

An example from a JV official I spoke to. Let's say JV game begins at 6:30 pm. Most are at the game site 45 minutes prior which is 5:45 pm. Factor in drive time in this area with a generous 30 minutes and he leaves the house at 5:15 pm. Game time of 1 hour and 15 minutes and we are approximately at 7:45. If with showering and changing and back home in 30 minutes it would be 8:15pm. He told me those are conservative estimates. So for 3 hours of his time he made $40.00. You do the math.

 

OK, after some calculations, in your region they make roughly $13.33 and hour. In my region we have a big number of triple headers, and the same refs call the JV and freshmen game. They get paid around ninety dollars for their time here. If you calculate drive time, which last time I checked I don't clock in before I leave my house either,then for two hours(and if you count their one hour of driving) work they are getting $30 dollars an hour. Would you consider this a bad wage for a few hours work? I know when you break a coaches salary down especially JV and assistants they are making roughly 2 to 3 dollars and hour. Who is getting paid more for their time? Clyde I guess I just got a little frustrated when I'm getting told that referee's don't make more than coaches. I do think coaches should be paid more for their time, and I think ref's get compensated fairly well for their time. When I think of the difference in pay it frustrates me because no one on this site thinks a referee should receive any criticism, but yet I can field phone calls at all hours of the night wondering about little Johnny's playing time.

[Clyde]

OK, after some calculations, in your region they make roughly $13.33 and hour. In my region we have a big number of triple headers, and the same refs call the JV and freshmen game. They get paid around ninety dollars for their time here. If you calculate drive time, which last time I checked I don't clock in before I leave my house either,then for two hours(and if you count their one hour of driving) work they are getting $30 dollars an hour. Would you consider this a bad wage for a few hours work? I know when you break a coaches salary down especially JV and assistants they are making roughly 2 to 3 dollars and hour. Who is getting paid more for their time? Clyde I guess I just got a little frustrated when I'm getting told that referee's don't make more than coaches. I do think coaches should be paid more for their time, and I think ref's get compensated fairly well for their time. When I think of the difference in pay it frustrates me because no one on this site thinks a referee should receive any criticism, but yet I can field phone calls at all hours of the night wondering about little Johnny's playing time.

 

Neither are making a lot of money especially when you factor in the intangibles. I doubt most coaches would quit if the school cut their stipend back. That's not why they show up, right? Heck, I get asked the "Johnny" questions and I don't get paid a dime.

[steelcurtain]

Neither are making a lot of money especially when you factor in the intangibles. I doubt most coaches would quit if the school cut their stipend back. That's not why they show up, right? Heck, I get asked the "Johnny" questions and I don't get paid a dime.

 

You are 100% correct. Nobody does it for the money, but money would be nice. All in all I just wanted everybody to understand that referee's at this level at least do make more than coaches period.

[atm10]

OK, after some calculations, in your region they make roughly $13.33 and hour. In my region we have a big number of triple headers, and the same refs call the JV and freshmen game. They get paid around ninety dollars for their time here. If you calculate drive time, which last time I checked I don't clock in before I leave my house either,then for two hours(and if you count their one hour of driving) work they are getting $30 dollars an hour. Would you consider this a bad wage for a few hours work? I know when you break a coaches salary down especially JV and assistants they are making roughly 2 to 3 dollars and hour. Who is getting paid more for their time? Clyde I guess I just got a little frustrated when I'm getting told that referee's don't make more than coaches. I do think coaches should be paid more for their time, and I think ref's get compensated fairly well for their time. When I think of the difference in pay it frustrates me because no one on this site thinks a referee should receive any criticism, but yet I can field phone calls at all hours of the night wondering about little Johnny's playing time.

 

How are you arriving at this calculation? Also with your example of refereeing two games you are just using the game time, 3 hours, to make it come out to $30 an hour. Again, I am using the hours the ref puts in. If we use your line of thinking if a team plays 30 games a year and the coach recieves $5,000 to coach he is making $166.00 for one game. In your example for two games the ref made $90. Who is making more?

 

You are 100% correct. Nobody does it for the money, but money would be nice. All in all I just wanted everybody to understand that referee's at this level at least do make more than coaches period.

 

Again what are you basing this assumption on? I am not saying either makes the money they deserve.

[leatherneck]

You are 100% correct. Nobody does it for the money, but money would be nice. All in all I just wanted everybody to understand that referee's at this level at least do make more than coaches period.

 

 

Great point. Both coaches and refs are underpaid for sure. Its why many, many people in the know really appreciate the sacrifices the refs and coaches make (which is why we should all be more cautious in our criticisms of them). Face it, involvement in high school athletics is not for the money. Its the joy seen on kids faces as they participate and the valuable lessons in life they are learning.

 

But if you think coaches and refs have it bad, from what I'm told the KHSAA Board of Control members get paid zero, zilch, nothing. And if the comments about the KHSAA Board of Control on here are indicative of the grief they receive in the general public, those folks really are stupid for volunteering their time.

[steelcurtain]

How are you arriving at this calculation? Also with your example of refereeing two games you are just using the game time, 3 hours, to make it come out to $30 an hour. Again, I am using the hours the ref puts in. If we use your line of thinking if a team plays 30 games a year and the coach recieves $5,000 to coach he is making $166.00 for one game. In your example for two games the ref made $90. Who is making more?

 

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Again what are you basing this assumption on? I am not saying either makes the money they deserve.

 

Are you forgetting about practice, scouting, walkthroughs, bus rides, fundraisers,conditioning. Count up all of those hours and see if you still arrive at $166 for one game.