John Schuerholz Out In Atlanta

[westsider]

You did a bit of "picking and choosing" but you are entitled to your opinion.

Picking and choosing? Explain ... the list is complete, according to Baseball Reference.

[Kingfish Stevens]

You could have mentioned Jason Schmidt, Marquis Grissom, David Justice, Paul Byrd, Mark DeRosa, Joe Borowski, and Jermaine Dye just to name a few. But, why quibble? You won't change my opinion nor will I change your opinion.

 

By the way, I don't need to use any reference books.

[westsider]

You could have mentioned Jason Schmidt, Marquis Grissom, David Justice, Paul Byrd, Mark DeRosa, Joe Borowski, and Jermaine Dye just to name a few. But, why quibble? You won't change my opinion nor will I change your opinion.

I used the guys you mentioned, and the inference that their trades somehow put a huge dent in the farm system. The evidence is that they didn't.

 

Actually, I've said for years that Schuerholz's trade record is pretty good, that Schmidt is the only then-unproven player he's traded away that turned out to be a star ... and that took a few years to happen.

 

Grissom? The Braves only gave up Tony Tarasco, Esteban Yan and Roberto Kelly for him, got two good years out of him then traded him just before his performance started to drop off. He and Justice netted them a heck of a year from Kenny Lofton.

 

DeRosa? When did he develop into a star?

 

Borowski? Gee, how many other teams let him go before he got his career on track?

 

Dye? He's had some good years ... and some bad ones. It took him three years after the Braves traded him to establish himself as an everyday player, and by the time he did Atlanta had Brian Jordan in right field.

 

Your bias against Schuerholz is obvious. And believe it or not, I'm no fan of the guy, although you have to respect his track record.

By the way, I don't need to use any reference books.

Excuuuse me ...

 

Baseball Reference is a website, by the way.

[Kingfish Stevens]

Website or book? The depth of knowledge is the same. You told me all I needed to know when you said that Lofton had "a heck of a year" and I am well aware that he hit .333 in his one year at Atlanta. The difference is that you know he hit .333 and I know the rest of the story. He didn't come back for a second year, did he?

 

I'll stand by my analysis and you can stand by your analysis. To some, the Braves are heralded for their 14 year run to make the playoffs. To many, they are known as the Buffalo Bills of baseball. Tony Kornheiser of ESPN recently stated that the Yankees were becoming the Braves. He didn't mean it in a positive way.

[westsider]

Website or book? The depth of knowledge is the same. You told me all I needed to know when you said that Lofton had "a heck of a year" and I am well aware that he hit .333 in his one year at Atlanta. The difference is that you know he hit .333 and I know the rest of the story. He didn't come back for a second year, did he?

Yeah, they had Andruw Jones ready to take over in CF ... that seemed to work out OK.

 

Sorry, Mr. "Depth of knowledge." Pardon me for making sure I have all the facts.

 

If you want to criticize Schuerholz's trading record, put up some evidence to back it up. So far you haven't.

[Kingfish Stevens]

You also ended up with Tucker in right and Klesko in left which was far from optimum. Tucker proved to not be an everyday player and Klesko, though he played there, was a poor outfielder. Lofton, at least as a performer, was superior to either of them. Indeed, Andy was ready to take over in center. However, merely passing it all off as Andy replacing Lofton is less than a full story.

 

Still, it is all a matter of opinion and you have yours and I have mine. Since neither of us will budge, we probably need to leave it at that.

[westsider]

You also ended up with Tucker in right and Klesko in left which was far from optimum. Tucker proved to not be an everyday player and Klesko, though he played there, was a poor outfielder. Lofton, at least as a performer, was superior to either of them. Indeed, Andy was ready to take over in center. However, merely passing it all off as Andy replacing Lofton is less than a full story.

It didn't seem to hurt the Braves, who only won the next eight division titles and averaged 97-98 wins per season in that span. Sometimes you have to give up players to be able to spend the money elsewhere, and the Braves did that pretty well.

[NEXT]

The money did not flow as easy as some think.

 

 

They were always one bat or pitcher away from winning a WS and it was because money.........

 

JS is one of the top MLB GM's of all tim

[Kingfish Stevens]

It didn't seem to hurt the Braves, who only won the next eight division titles and averaged 97-98 wins per season in that span. Sometimes you have to give up players to be able to spend the money elsewhere, and the Braves did that pretty well.

[/i]

 

 

Your last post indicates where we differ. You are impressed by the eight division titles from 1998 to 2005. I, on the other hand, see a string of eight years that produced only one trip to the WS (a 4 and out loss to the Yankees in 1999), two losses in the NLCS, and five losses in the first round. I also see that 4 of the 5 first round losses occurred in 2002 through 2005. I see no playoff berths in 2006 or in 2007.

 

Schuerholz may well be compared to Bush. His first "term" was acceptable and had many good spots. However, there are many failures in his second "term".

 

Apparently your expectations were less than were mine.

[Kingfish Stevens]

The money did not flow as easy as some think.

 

 

They were always one bat or pitcher away from winning a WS and it was because money.........

 

JS is one of the top MLB GM's of all tim

 

 

Care to elaborate about the flow of money?

[westsider]

[/i]

 

 

Your last post indicates where we differ. You are impressed by the eight division titles from 1998 to 2005. I, on the other hand, see a string of eight years that produced only one trip to the WS (a 4 and out loss to the Yankees in 1999), two losses in the NLCS, and five losses in the first round. I also see that 4 of the 5 first round losses occurred in 2002 through 2005. I see no playoff berths in 2006 or in 2007.

 

Schuerholz may well be compared to Bush. His first "term" was acceptable and had many good spots. However, there are many failures in his second "term".

 

Apparently your expectations were less than were mine.

Postseason baseball is a crapshoot ... look at all the wild cards that have won World Series over the last few years, not to mention the 83-win Cardinals last year.

 

All you can ask of a GM every year is for him to put together a team good enough to make the postseason and have a legitimate chance to get to the Series ... Schuerholz and the Braves were remarkably consistent at doing exactly that.

 

You're wanting to blame Schuerholz for the postseason failures ... if there is blame to assess, it should go more to Cox and the players, I would think.

[Kingfish Stevens]

Postseason baseball is a crapshoot ... look at all the wild cards that have won World Series over the last few years, not to mention the 83-win Cardinals last year.

 

All you can ask of a GM every year is for him to put together a team good enough to make the postseason and have a legitimate chance to get to the Series ... Schuerholz and the Braves were remarkably consistent at doing exactly that.

 

You're wanting to blame Schuerholz for the postseason failures ... if there is blame to assess, it should go more to Cox and the players, I would think.

 

I agree with your last statement. However, teams are deemed "great" (a much overused word) or otherwise based upon winning the big games and the big titles. For example, in high school basketball, we have some regions that are usually dominated by one or two schools. However, they never perform well in the state tournament. We acknowledge their local success but we would never consider them "great".

 

If Schuerholz gets much of the credit for winning the divisional titles, he must also share the blame for the repeated chokes in the postseason. You don't get the wheat without the chaff.

 

My whole point is that I was pleased to hear that Schuerholz is quitting as GM. I am disappointed that he is merely moving up to president. I preferred that he move on. Wren will merely be an extention of Schuerholz. It should not be overlooked that, during the "run" of the Braves, Florida won twice as many World Championships. That is an important fact to blend into the mix.

 

The Braves often won the battle but nearly always lost the war. I find that to be less than satisfactory and far from "great". Thus, I think it is a misstatement to call Schuerholz a "great" GM. He was good, particularly in the early years, but not "great".

[NEXT]

Care to elaborate about the flow of money?

 

 

Turner set a cap. Plain and simple and if you look back at their payroll that did go over a certain number and I'll have to find it.

 

 

 

The main reason he is leaving though is there are rumors that Liberty Media will mandate a deep cut in this year's $89 million payroll.

That could be difficult since the club is already committed to John Smoltz ($14 million), Tim Hudson ($13 million), Chipper Jones ($12.3 million) and Mike Hampton ($15 million) in 2008 and also needs to sign Mark Teixeira to a long-term deal to justify trading top prospect Jarrod Saltalamachia to get him.

[stick1]

If Cox left is there any chance that Torre ever goes back to Atlanta? I don't know the feelings when he left but know he was there back in the day. Just a thought.

[youknowme]

President rumors are true...

 

Braves GM Schuerholz now team prez

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=288560

 

ATLANTA (AP) -- John Schuerholz stepped aside Thursday after 17 years as general manager of the Atlanta Braves with only one regret.

 

Despite an unprecedented 14 straight division titles, the Braves won just one World Series.

 

With a few more rings, he figured, this would have been the perfect farewell.

 

"What else is there?" said Schuerholz, who will become team president and turn over the GM duties to his right-hand man, Frank Wren. "It would have been, unequivocally, the complete validation of the grand nature of this franchise. Nobody could have said anything about the Atlanta Braves and ended the sentence with the word 'but."'

 

Otherwise, Schuerholz has no complaints with his career, one that could land him a spot in Cooperstown someday.

 

He turned 67 last week and was admittedly worn down by the grind of more than a quarter-century as a general manager. Before coming to Atlanta, he spent nine years in the same post with the Kansas City Royals, winning another World Series title in 1985.

 

But he will forever be remembered for his impact on the Braves, a perennial last-place team when he took over in 1991. That very first year, Atlanta won the NL West and went all the way to the World Series. In the years that followed, the division titles kept coming with numbing regularity, until the streak finally ended with a third-place finish in 2005.