If you have not gotten the "vax" by now - you are not going to.  Most in category probably already had it.  If a 70% "vax" rate is not good enough and the "vaxxed" can still catch it, die from it and spread it.  Then this is a silly game at this point.  Blaming the "unvaxxed" for the obvious and clear failure of the "vax" while ignoring over 12,000+ direct vax-related deaths is not helping anything at this point. 

 

11 minutes ago, Bluegrasscard said:

Most in category probably already had it. 

Are you saying most vaccinated people already have had it, or that most unvaccinated people have already had it?

Also, how has the vaccine failed?

13 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

Are you saying most vaccinated people already have had it, or that most unvaccinated people have already had it?

Also, how has the vaccine failed?

Of the "unvaxxed" are probably largely convalescent protected.  Given the spread rate, of which I had first hand experience, its all but impossible to assume everyone has not been exposed at this point.  

The only people I  directly know that have had issues in the last year have been "vaxxed". 

People can still catch it, spread it and die from it.  And to supposedly to have any benefit (supposedly less symptoms) you need regular "boosters".   Based on these factors, the "vaxx" can not be considered of value.  It is not at all a vaccine when compared to MMR vaccine. 

Lessening of symptoms is not a vaccine.  If that is where the bar is - then aspirin is also a "vaccine" using the same definition.  Real vaccines prevent illness, they prevent spread.  Literally, the definitions of a vaccine have been changed over the last two years to fit the now very low bar of supposed benefit. 

 

Edited January 6, 20224 yr by Bluegrasscard
minor grammer.

2 minutes ago, Bluegrasscard said:

Of the "unvaxxed" are probably largely convalescent protected.  Given the spread rate, of which I had first hand experience, its all but impossible to assume everyone has not been exposed at this point.  

The only people I  directly know that have had issues in the last year have been "vaxxed". 

People can still catch it, spread it and die from it.  And to supposedly to have any benefit (supposedly less symptoms) you need regular "boosters".   Based on these factors, the "vaxx" can not be considered of value.  It is not at all a vaccine when compared to MMR vaccine. 

Lessening of symptoms is not a vaccine.  If that is where the bar is - then aspirin is also a "vaccine" using the same definition.  Real vaccines prevent illness, they prevent spread.  Literally, the definitions of a vaccine have been changed over the last two years to fit the now very low bar of supposed benefit. 

 

I disagree with pretty much everything here, so I'm not going to bother dissecting it further. 

2 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I guess I get a different view. I talk to and see a lot of people every day because of my job. I hear the real stories on almost daily basis about friends and family who have died or survived but suffer serious consequences that they are still dealing with. Young people who are healthy but having troubles or have died. The 43 year old healthy dentist with 4 kids who told people not to get vaccinated and is dead. Those are the people I hear about regularly that I think about. Yes, it is "only" a 2% death rate. Probably less than 1% with Omicron. But I don't get rolling the dice and going unvaccinated when we now have over 9 billion vaccinated people in the world. Why not get vaccinated and reduce those odds of death or serious issues down to less than 0.1%? Everyone is going to get COVID. The question is do you want to get it vaccinated or unvaccinated.

There aren't 9 billion people on this planet but ok.  It's their choice.  It hurts no one but themselves or loved ones (if they pass) but they get to make that choice.  The long term side effects still aren't known.  Vaccinated are transmitting,  unvaccinated,  hell even wildlife at this point.  The only benefit to vaccination at this point is for the vaccinated  individual. 

Just now, sportsfan41 said:

The long term side effects still aren't known. 

This has been and will continue to be one of the weakest excuses used. People shovel things into our bodies that we know for a fact are bad for us long term every single day without hesitation. 

29 minutes ago, sportsfan41 said:

There aren't 9 billion people on this planet but ok.  It's their choice.  It hurts no one but themselves or loved ones (if they pass) but they get to make that choice.  The long term side effects still aren't known.  Vaccinated are transmitting,  unvaccinated,  hell even wildlife at this point.  The only benefit to vaccination at this point is for the vaccinated  individual. 

Thank you for pointing out that error. I should have said 9 billion vaccine shots given. The people vaccinated is 4.6 billion. That gets us to about 60% of the world vaccinated.

I agree on choice. The reasons most people are choosing not to get vaccinated are disappointing and often illogical, but it is their choice. They do increase risk to the rest of us by that choice so the choice is not in a vacuum impacting only them. An argument can be made that the choice to be unvaccinated is an infringement on the freedoms of the vaccinated because of the impact on society of the unvaccinated. There is a point where the freedoms of the majority outweigh individual freedom. Where we are now in the pandemic, I favor continuing as is and continue to pray for those choosing not to be vaccinated.

1 hour ago, Bluegrasscard said:

The only people I  directly know that have had issues in the last year have been "vaxxed". 

 

In just the past month, I've had co-workers who've been vaccinated AND had their booster shot, who still got Covid.  Both of them were pretty bad, and were sick for 2 weeks.  Another co-worker got it at the same time, who was unvaccinated, and never had any symptoms.  So, the moral is...you're better off without the vaccine, right?  I've heard stories like that, forever.  For instance, I can't tell you how many times I've heard something to the extent of "My grandma smoked two packs of cigarettes a week for 75 years, never got cancer and died from old age when she was 92."  Or, "I was in a car accident, and the trooper said if I had been wearing my seat-belt, I would've been cut in two."  Some people like to take the exception to the rule, and make it the rule. 

So, to counter your experience, I'll tell you mine...the only people that I have known, personally, to have died from Covid...have all been unvaccinated.  That's the only stat that I'm concerned about at this point.  I wish we could have a ticker on the TV screen that showed deaths by the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated.  Update it each day like they do sports scores or the stock market.  But, I guess, why bother?  People will want to hang on to their exceptions.

And @Bluegrasscard, I just re-read my post, and don't want it to come off as a personal attack on you.  We all have our experiences, and I wasn't trying to de-value or discount yours.  It's just that your response sounded very similar to part of the discussion held here at work over the past couple of weeks after those 3 got sick.  Some wanted to say that was a model for the remaining 300 million in the country, which, to me, is absurd.

Again, my apologies.

1 hour ago, TheDeuce said:

This has been and will continue to be one of the weakest excuses used. People shovel things into our bodies that we know for a fact are bad for us long term every single day without hesitation. 

That’s your opinion. If they feel differently so be it. I don’t understand people being up in arms about someone else’s choice to go it alone vs getting the vaccine that only helps to lessen the severity of the virus if it’s contracted. 

31 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Thank you for pointing out that error. I should have said 9 billion vaccine shots given. The people vaccinated is 4.6 billion. That gets us to about 60% of the world vaccinated.

I agree on choice. The reasons most people are choosing not to get vaccinated are disappointing and often illogical, but it is their choice. They do increase risk to the rest of us by that choice so the choice is not in a vacuum impacting only them. An argument can be made that the choice to be unvaccinated is an infringement on the freedoms of the vaccinated because of the impact on society of the unvaccinated. There is a point where the freedoms of the majority outweigh individual freedom. Where we are now in the pandemic, I favor continuing as is and continue to pray for those choosing not to be vaccinated.

I strongly disagree with everything you’ve said. You can restrict people access from certain establishments etc but no way in hell should we start forcing people to take vaccines.  If you don’t understand how slippery of a slope that is, good god.  So much for freedom.  

2 minutes ago, sportsfan41 said:

I strongly disagree with everything you’ve said. You can restrict people access from certain establishments etc but no way in hell should we start forcing people to take vaccines.  If you don’t understand how slippery of a slope that is, good god.  So much for freedom.  

Unless I am missing something, you are agreeing exactly with what VOR said (choice/freedom).

1 hour ago, sportsfan41 said:

I strongly disagree with everything you’ve said. You can restrict people access from certain establishments etc but no way in hell should we start forcing people to take vaccines.  If you don’t understand how slippery of a slope that is, good god.  So much for freedom.  

There are volumes of laws people have to follow. There are vaccines required to go to school. I am all for freedom of choice unless it gets to the point that your choice is causing harm to others. Freedom does not go that far. There is a point where "freedom" becomes anarchy.

2 hours ago, CincySportsFan said:

And @Bluegrasscard, I just re-read my post, and don't want it to come off as a personal attack on you.  We all have our experiences, and I wasn't trying to de-value or discount yours.  It's just that your response sounded very similar to part of the discussion held here at work over the past couple of weeks after those 3 got sick.  Some wanted to say that was a model for the remaining 300 million in the country, which, to me, is absurd.

Again, my apologies.

@CincySportsFan First, my condolences on family losses.  Having loved ones taken by sudden events is always hard.  In terms of immediate impact we have been more fortunate.  Though, just last week a distant cousin who I had never met passed due to a heart attack - at age 34. 

I am did not take anything as personal attack.  I enjoy the discuss here because I know the people are real and the common interest that brings them to BGP. 

I am not proposing any specific model.  Given the nebulous and conflicting  background history of the virus makes any firm direction impossible - at all levels.  I continue to raise extreme caution with the "vaxx".   Its showing its not at all a silver bullet.  I continue to have extreme concerns on long term safety of these treatments.  This is still all experimental and there is still, to this day, no FDA-approved product in the pipeline what-so-ever.  Its all still EUA with absolutely zero accountability for the manufacturers.  Conformity, the FDA-approved (not just authorized) product, has not yet started manufacturing and is not yet available.  Again, everything being administered is still currently under the EUA umbrella.   As I indicated, these not like MMR vaccines.  There is no debate on that.  And they were rushed to distribution without normal studies and safeguards.  

While many have suffered losses, it just seems its time to stop assuming that any single approach is going to be useful.  Those that are vaxxed are vaxxed.  Though of us who are not vaxxed are not going to get vaxxed.  Many of the "vaxxed" are not going to get the boosters, some are.  

So to conclude, raising vaxxed vs unvaxxed as if it matters at this point is just not right .  It is just not a useful health debate.  We can not treat each other like lepers.  If one is truly protected then they should not care if others are not.  What is happening in Canada, Australia and other countries with vaxx mandates and persecuting the "unvaxxed" needs to not replicate here in the US. 

All is good.  Take care. 

1 hour ago, Voice of Reason said:

There are volumes of laws people have to follow. There are vaccines required to go to school. I am all for freedom of choice unless it gets to the point that your choice is causing harm to others. Freedom does not go that far. There is a point where "freedom" becomes anarchy.

I guess I need more of an explanation as to how the people that aren't vaccinated are putting you and I at a greater risk? 

 

On a side note, Fentanyl was the leading cause of death in the United States in 2021 for people aged 18-45, not Covid.