8 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

It is stunning how many people I personally know of who have COVID right now. I have said since early summer that everyone is going to get it by end of 2021 and I don't think I am too far off on that. I think by mid February, if not sooner, we will be at herd immunity. 

Probably an ignorant question but if people can get COVID multiple times, does herd immunity really exist?

16 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Next question.

A person has a heart condition. They have lived with this heart condition for the past couple years and should be able to live for years with the heart issue. They get COVID and die. Is cause of death the heart condition or COVID?

COVID.

17 hours ago, Jumper_Dad said:

I'm not a doctor, scientist or expert in any way...but every person that I personally know, except one with many other health conditions, that have died from covid have been unvaccinated. That seems to be a big clue, to me.

The crux of the issue, in my opinion.

Two uncles and a cousin died of COVID.  A couple of folks at church too.  All five had a chance to be vaccinated and were not.  A handful of other people in the community that I know died and were unvaccinated.  Another good friend and a friend's Mom both died before vaccinations were available.

The math on this--and I hate to call it math--is not complicated.

37 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

It is stunning how many people I personally know of who have COVID right now. I have said since early summer that everyone is going to get it by end of 2021 and I don't think I am too far off on that. I think by mid February, if not sooner, we will be at herd immunity. 

 

29 minutes ago, MJAlltheWay24 said:

Probably an ignorant question but if people can get COVID multiple times, does herd immunity really exist?

Way back when COVID first started I was high on the possibility of herd immunity too but over time I have the same concern as MJ about the long-term efficacy of any type of immunity from either vaccination or natural immunity.  In other words, COVID is new and we don't know.

17 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Will people take the pills? Why would they take the pill that is far less proven than the vaccine?

One would "assume" that a pill is an immune system booster with very little or no side effects so I think a pill is a lot easier sell. 

17 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Next question.

A person has a heart condition. They have lived with this heart condition for the past couple years and should be able to live for years with the heart issue. They get COVID and die. Is cause of death the heart condition or COVID?

Another thing to consider here is the relationship between the vaccines and myocarditis.  We have no idea what the long term effects will be and with that said the vaccines could end up being a specific contributor to heart issues and deaths for years to come.

Everything COVID feels like a Catch-22 right now. 

15 minutes ago, theguru said:

Another thing to consider here is the relationship between the vaccines and myocarditis.  We have no idea what the long term effects will be and with that said the vaccines could end up being a specific contributor to heart issues and deaths for years to come.

Everything COVID feels like a Catch-22 right now. 

My question is specifically trying to find out how people classify deaths when there is a "comorbidity" issue. It can be a pre-existing heart condition, it can be cancer (even in remission), it can be any other existing health condition a person has. If the person with an existing health issue gets COVID and dies, what is the cause of death?

4 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

My question is specifically trying to find out how people classify deaths when there is a "comorbidity" issue. It can be a pre-existing heart condition, it can be cancer (even in remission), it can be any other existing health condition a person has. If the person with an existing health issue gets COVID and dies, what is the cause of death?

I understand.  I would imagine COVID would appear on the death certificate, even it was stated as "with COVID," so in the current environment I would strongly assume it would be considered a COVID death.

37 minutes ago, MJAlltheWay24 said:

Probably an ignorant question but if people can get COVID multiple times, does herd immunity really exist?

It is all about serious illness and deaths. Get people protected with antibodies by vaccine or surviving COVID. Cases are much less of a concern. If we get herd immunity, COVID really and truly does become similar to the flu ... finally.

15 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

It is all about serious illness and deaths. Get people protected with antibodies by vaccine or surviving COVID. Cases are much less of a concern. If we get herd immunity, COVID really and truly does become similar to the flu ... finally.

Like you, I am crossing my fingers that Omicron gives us the elusive herd immunity we all want. 

1 hour ago, theguru said:

Another thing to consider here is the relationship between the vaccines and myocarditis.  We have no idea what the long term effects will be and with that said the vaccines could end up being a specific contributor to heart issues and deaths for years to come.

Everything COVID feels like a Catch-22 right now. 

Thus far there are rare occurrences of myocarditis with those vaccinated, but it is a much stronger risk factor (i.e. side effect) for those that contract COVID. Both of those statements are true. But yes, long term (years?) we do not know the effects of these vaccines. And while I am not dismissing the potential long term impacts of a vaccine, history doesn't point to long term side effects of vaccines so I feel safe rolling with that. Right or wrong. 

As I've said, I don't care about people and this vaccine. My concern is the facebook researchers going away from more proven vaccines and we bring back some serious junk to this world.

My general rule when it comes to classifying deaths and COVID-19. There is a large faction that takes every number as gospel. This includes cases and deaths. We know that ain't true. There is a large faction that still believes COVID is largely a hoax and the regulations in place, vaccines available, are all being created by a group of people for "control." Don't know what or why they are controlling these things, but ok, I will go with it.

So I apply the 19% rule to everything. If we have 1,000,000 deaths, call it 190,000. I don't believe the numbers are this low, but it seems to appease the "COVID isn't that big of a deal" crowd and brings some perspective. So is anything we are doing worth it for those 190,000?

9 minutes ago, bugatti said:

Thus far there are rare occurrences of myocarditis with those vaccinated, but it is a much stronger risk factor (i.e. side effect) for those that contract COVID. Both of those statements are true. But yes, long term (years?) we do not know the effects of these vaccines. And while I am not dismissing the potential long term impacts of a vaccine, history doesn't point to long term side effects of vaccines so I feel safe rolling with that. Right or wrong. 

As I've said, I don't care about people and this vaccine. My concern is the facebook researchers going away from more proven vaccines and we bring back some serious junk to this world.

I don't disagree with anything you said but the bottom line is we don't know.

With that said, if anyone is obese, has other comorbidities, is up there in years, etc. and has not had either COVID or the vaccine I think they should get the vaccine. 

1 hour ago, Voice of Reason said:

My question is specifically trying to find out how people classify deaths when there is a "comorbidity" issue. It can be a pre-existing heart condition, it can be cancer (even in remission), it can be any other existing health condition a person has. If the person with an existing health issue gets COVID and dies, what is the cause of death?

Also to add to this, the CDC just said that the overwhelming number of deaths, over 75%, occurred in people who had at least four comorbidities.  Additionally sorting through this, it appears that COVID being the only cause of death is less than 10% of the deaths and comorbidities come into play in close to 95% of the deaths.  

I think I have this right everyone, either way, you get the idea.

29 minutes ago, bugatti said:

My general rule when it comes to classifying deaths and COVID-19. There is a large faction that takes every number as gospel. This includes cases and deaths. We know that ain't true. There is a large faction that still believes COVID is largely a hoax and the regulations in place, vaccines available, are all being created by a group of people for "control." Don't know what or why they are controlling these things, but ok, I will go with it.

So I apply the 19% rule to everything. If we have 1,000,000 deaths, call it 190,000. I don't believe the numbers are this low, but it seems to appease the "COVID isn't that big of a deal" crowd and brings some perspective. So is anything we are doing worth it for those 190,000?

Actually according to the CDC the numbers are lower than 19%, probably more like half that, but your point still carries.