Thoughts?

[Frances Bavier]

Wouldn't the steam melt the snowball?

 

I never thought about that. Not to worry - I am sending an email to Sir Isaac Newton's website. I'm hoping he'll get back to us fairly soon ...

 

 

Frances

[acemona]

I hate these people that bring actual issues into a Political debate. :sssh:

 

Just kidding acemona and my view on the issue.

 

I don't believe the Bible called on government to feed the poor. I believe that is the church's job and not the government. Unless you believe that the government has replaced the church of the Bible. And I don't believe that has occurred. I believe the Church has neglected and even gave this responsibility up to the government and it is a key problem with this society.

 

The way to help the poor is for the church in the form of all the local churches in communities getting out and providing programs to serve the poor in their area.

 

Simple example. So many churches have Wednesday night meals in a community. Why couldn't they spread those meals out to one on Monday, one on Tuesday, etc and the poor in a community would have somewhere to go in their community every single day and receive a meal.

 

Yes the Bible continually mentions the poor and how the church but not government is the answer for the poor.

 

I agree, the church has acquiessed (sp) a great deal, but the Bible does not allow us to allow our social institutions, i.e. The Government, to commit sins for us. It is the churches responsibility to bring justice to the unempowered - sometimes we have to do it through laws and policies - 1964 civil rights act.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Just curious then, how do you interpret Matthew 25:31-46? The parable Jesus uses clearly says in verse 32:

 

And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will seperate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

 

I think it's pretty clear there must be some nation or government accountability right here.

I see nations as groupings of people and not a country with a government. The OT uses that term nation to describe people that did not necessarily have a country with a government.

 

I see it as him saying that people from all different ethinicity will gather before him and he will seperate them as sheep (His followers) and the goats (those who did not choose to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior).

 

I do not believe governments is the way that God expects us to change things. If so, why didn't Jesus express more interest in the government at that time and look for a political overthrow as some of His followers wanted.

[ladiesbballcoach]

I agree, the church has acquiessed (sp) a great deal, but the Bible does not allow us to allow our social institutions, i.e. The Government, to commit sins for us. It is the churches responsibility to bring justice to the unempowered - sometimes we have to do it through laws and policies - 1964 civil rights act.

There is no one or no thing that can sin for us. We are each responsible for our own sin. If the government could sin for us, than we are all in trouble as our government allows the murder of thousands of babies every single cotton pickin' day.

 

Laws does not bring anything but consequences after the action. The mindset of people is what brings justice to the unempowered. People who do not commit murder. Do you think they DON'T commit murder because they feel it is wrong or because it is against the law?

[Hatz]

I see nations as groupings of people and not a country with a government. The OT uses that term nation to describe people that did not necessarily have a country with a government.

 

I see it as him saying that people from all different ethinicity will gather before him and he will seperate them as sheep (His followers) and the goats (those who did not choose to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior).

 

I do not believe governments is the way that God expects us to change things. If so, why didn't Jesus express more interest in the government at that time and look for a political overthrow as some of His followers wanted.

 

 

Not as often as you are thinking. In fact he speaks of Assyria, Babylon, Edom, Philstia, et al. These are all nations with governments. You can see it as ethnicity but if it's a personal situation of responsibility why say anything like nations?

 

As for the government statements in the last paragraph I too agree (see the temptations in the desert for Jesus). However many times people are punished for the sins of the collective (nation). Captivity for Israel and Judah, even Sodom and Gomorra. Surely these places held the innocent in their population who were consumed by the judgement.

 

Just food for thought. :thumb:

[ladiesbballcoach]

Not as often as you are thinking. In fact he speaks of Assyria, Babylon, Edom, Philstia, et al. These are all nations with governments. You can see it as ethnicity but if it's a personal situation of responsibility why say anything like nations?

 

As for the government statements in the last paragraph I too agree (see the temptations in the desert for Jesus). However many times people are punished for the sins of the collective (nation). Captivity for Israel and Judah, even Sodom and Gomorra. Surely these places held the innocent in their population who were consumed by the judgement.

 

Just food for thought. :thumb:

I think the captivity did not come about because of what the nation as a collective unit was doing but rather how each individual person in the nation had turned from God. It was what they, individually was doing in their daily lives that upset God. Not necessarily the policies of the government of Israel.

[Hatz]

I think the captivity did not come about because of what the nation as a collective unit was doing but rather how each individual person in the nation had turned from God. It was what they, individually was doing in their daily lives that upset God. Not necessarily the policies of the government of Israel.

 

 

Not saying they were but do you believe it was every person? What about the innocents? The Children? Were they led into captivity because of their sin? If not theirs then whose? The collective, (IMHO) known as the nation.

 

I respect your opinion LBC but I think personal accountability explanations help us to convinently gloss over the sin of the group and twist what Jesus actually said to fit our theories.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Not saying they were but do you believe it was every person? What about the innocents? The Children? Were they led into captivity because of their sin? If not theirs then whose? The collective, (IMHO) known as the nation.

 

I respect your opinion LBC but I think personal accountability explanations help us to convinently gloss over the sin of the group and twist what Jesus actually said to fit our theories.

I think I am saying what you are saying but not clearly.

 

I think God looked at the amount of sin that was happening in the nation as a whole and that sin was occurring individually. I think he saw a nation that where he thought a huge number of people had individually in their daily lives turned from God (on a sidenote: that also describes the present day USA) and since the nation as a whole had turned from God, even though it was not every single individual, and punished the nation.

 

Did that help?

 

I could liken it to all of us misbehaving on this site and continually doing it. I post things that are not allowed, you do, GT does, TD does, etc, etc. The mods don't, they behave. And guru seeing all of us out of control, closes the site. It wasn't our actions as a whole but our actions individually that led to the punishment.

[Hatz]

I think I am saying what you are saying but not clearly.

 

I think God looked at the amount of sin that was happening in the nation as a whole and that sin was occurring individually. I think he saw a nation that where he thought a huge number of people had individually in their daily lives turned from God (on a sidenote: that also describes the present day USA) and since the nation as a whole had turned from God, even though it was not every single individual, and punished the nation.

 

Did that help?

 

I could liken it to all of us misbehaving on this site and continually doing it. I post things that are not allowed, you do, GT does, TD does, etc, etc. The mods don't, they behave. And guru seeing all of us out of control, closes the site. It wasn't our actions as a whole but our actions individually that led to the punishment.

 

I think we are closer than we thought. :thumb:

 

I still believe there is some divine retribution for the society as a whole. Whether it's a Civil War, a captivity, or internal destruction. Just my take. :thumb:

[ladiesbballcoach]

I think we are closer than we thought. :thumb:

 

I still believe there is some divine retribution for the society as a whole. Whether it's a Civil War, a captivity, or internal destruction. Just my take. :thumb:

So do you think society's can sin? I am a little confused, some would say lot of confused.

 

I do believe there are punishments for countries, nations, but I believe they result in how individuals are acting as a whole in that country rather than the country itself. If so, are we each going to have to answer individually for this country's sin of murdering babies under the guise of freedom of choice? A country where we hold the importance of freedoms over what God would want. (Surely no one will argue that God wants thousands of babies killed everyday so that a woman's/man's life is not inconvienced.)

 

Wouldn't Sodom and Gomorra (sp??) be an example. God said if they could find one righteous man in there that he would spare them. They couldn't and He didn't. The act of one man could have saved a whole town.

[HHSDad]

So do you think society's can sin? I am a little confused, some would say lot of confused.

Absolutely. There is example after example in the Old Testament about this.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Absolutely. There is example after example in the Old Testament about this.

Have you read my previous posts in this thread on this point or just referring to my last?

 

I believe the OT threads are God looking at the individual actions of the people, at least those that were supposed to be his followers. I do believe we are looking at a different view in those that are supposed to be following him and those who are not.

[Hatz]

So do you think society's can sin? I am a little confused, some would say lot of confused.

 

I do believe there are punishments for countries, nations, but I believe they result in how individuals are acting as a whole in that country rather than the country itself. If so, are we each going to have to answer individually for this country's sin of murdering babies under the guise of freedom of choice? A country where we hold the importance of freedoms over what God would want. (Surely no one will argue that God wants thousands of babies killed everyday so that a woman's/man's life is not inconvienced.)

 

Wouldn't Sodom and Gomorra (sp??) be an example. God said if they could find one righteous man in there that he would spare them. They couldn't and He didn't. The act of one man could have saved a whole town.

 

 

Actually I am saying society sins. Reread Amos and his pronouncements. These are directed at nations and societies.

 

To split hairs there was no righteous man found but in Sodom but are you willing to say the same about children or innocents? That is always the red herring in any discussion about society and justice for that society. Were there no innocents at all in the city? If there were, then was the judgement just for the individuals or for the community (society)?

[ladiesbballcoach]

Actually I am saying society sins. Reread Amos and his pronouncements. These are directed at nations and societies.

 

To split hairs there was no righteous man found but in Sodom but are you willing to say the same about children or innocents? That is always the red herring in any discussion about society and justice for that society. Were there no innocents at all in the city? If there were, then was the judgement just for the individuals or for the community (society)?

Will do. I'll reread Andy too.

 

I am not saying it but it does say it in the Bible. I would say the point might be that can unrighteous men raise righteous children? I would want to say yes, but you point out that there would be children there when it was destroyed.

 

I believe it was for the community based upon the actions of individual's. It was not the actions of the community that caused Lot's wife to suffer her fate.

 

Again, am I to be held accountable for the abortions going on in this country if I vote based upon those who are against that stance?

 

Good discussion that is giving me some things to meditate on over the next few weeks. Might see another version of this thread as I progress through that meditation.

[acemona]

Will do. I'll reread Andy too.

 

I am not saying it but it does say it in the Bible. I would say the point might be that can unrighteous men raise righteous children? I would want to say yes, but you point out that there would be children there when it was destroyed.

 

I believe it was for the community based upon the actions of individual's. It was not the actions of the community that caused Lot's wife to suffer her fate.

 

Again, am I to be held accountable for the abortions going on in this country if I vote based upon those who are against that stance?

 

Good discussion that is giving me some things to meditate on over the next few weeks. Might see another version of this thread as I progress through that meditation.

 

Let's move away from the abortion issue - you see, with that argument there are some who think it is a sin and others who do not so there is legitimate disagreement - however . . .

 

Did the goverment under Hitler sin? Yes

Did the government under Hussein sin? Yes

Does our government/society sin when we establish policies and institutions that allow 46 million children to go without adequate health care? Yes

Will I be held accountable for that? Yes, based on what I did/do to change the system.

 

Did the government sin when it SUPPORTED segregated facilities based on race? Yes

 

Does our government sin when it continues to devise policies that allow the wealthy to become more wealthy while allowing the suffering to continue to suffer? YES