Conservatives and INDIVIDUAL Liberty

[acemona]

I am slowly working through this proposition.

 

Only in a few cases do I believe that Conservatives advocate for Individual Liberty.

 

Historically Conservatives were is full support of a Kingly Autocracy or in other cases a rule by a Landed Aristocracy.

They supported subjugation to the Church (I am not using subjugation negatively but it is the best descriptive word that comes to mind right now) and by Church I mean the European Catholic Church.

 

I think it is even more true Contemporaneously.

 

Where do conservatives advocate currently for Individual Liberty?

Gun Laws

Fetal Rights??

Individual Small Business Owners - and this is iffy.

 

In most other cases, people are put into groups/corporations and attacked or advocated for based on the group.

 

Individual Laborers are grouped with Labor Unions and then attacked.

Teachers are grouped with Teacher Unions and then attacked.

 

Corporations are groups of people but are advocated for as Individuals - see Citizens United.

The CHURCH and its religious liberty is advocated for in the recent contraception flap, but not the individual religious/non-religious person in their liberty.

 

Conservatives advocate for Charter Schools, but not individual kids. (See Charter schools are really money making corporations).

 

Smokers as a group need protecting (tobacco is profit making) but individuals who don't want to breathe the smoke need to choose to go somewhere else.

 

Large groups ought to be able to hold corporate prayer at a ball game, but the individual who doesn't want to must succumb to the group.

 

I don't know . . . I still have some thinking to do on the topic, but I think I am on to something.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I know profits are evil to you and your ilk, but really? You have a problem with Charter schools?

[75center]

"I still have some thinking to do on the topic"

 

Yep.

[acemona]

Huge problems with Charter Schools:

 

1. There is no clear research that says they perform better than public schools.

2. They siphon away money from public schools

3. They are not obligated to educate everyone

4. They do not have to follow certification guideline for teachers

[acemona]

I forgot about marriage:

 

Subjugate to some churches.

Individuals have no real liberty

[formerkywrestler]

I'm fairly certain "conservatives" and "individual liberty" is an oxymoron.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Huge problems with Charter Schools:

 

1. There is no clear research that says they perform better than public schools.

2. They siphon away money from public schools

3. They are not obligated to educate everyone

4. They do not have to follow certification guideline for teachers

1. Then that would mean there is no clear research that says they don't.

2. We all know that public schools are infallible:rolleyes:

3. Public schools educate everyone?

4. Who cares? There are MANY certified teachers that I would not let teach an underwater basketweaving class.

[Know It All]

Huge problems with Charter Schools:

 

1. There is no clear research that says they perform better than public schools.

2. They siphon away money from public schools

3. They are not obligated to educate everyone

4. They do not have to follow certification guideline for teachers

 

Lol at this post in its entirety.

[Bluegrasscard]

I forgot about marriage:

 

Subjugate to some churches.

Individuals have no real liberty

 

This we can use to make sure what real rights are.

 

People criticize the United States Constitution allot it seems. If you fail to have an appreciation for what is in it this is a reckless thing to do.

 

Above you what you call subjugation is what the Constitution calls the right to association. By being a member of a church you have exercised one of the basic rights protected by the Constitution - freedom of association. You have the freedom to leave that church if its teachings do not fit your view. You have the right to not give monies and support to that church if it does meet your standards. So you subjugate nothing. You are exercising the fundamental right of association.

[FarBeyondDriven]

I forgot about marriage:

 

Subjugate to some churches.

Individuals have no real liberty

Only thing folks are increasingly becoming "subjugated" to is the federal government.

[acemona]

This we can use to make sure what real rights are.

 

People criticize the United States Constitution allot it seems. If you fail to have an appreciation for what is in it this is a reckless thing to do.

 

Above you what you call subjugation is what the Constitution calls the right to association. By being a member of a church you have exercised one of the basic rights protected by the Constitution - freedom of association. You have the freedom to leave that church if its teachings do not fit your view. You have the right to not give monies and support to that church if it does meet your standards. So you subjugate nothing. You are exercising the fundamental right of association.

 

I am talking about the real fact that we don't allow gay marriage in all 50 states is because we 'subjugate' that freedom to the beliefs of religious organizations. What the "Church" believes is more important than the individual rights or citizens to "associate." We can choose to associate with a church, but we cannot choose to associate with a same sex partner in marriage. See how that works?

[acemona]

Lol at this post in its entirety.

 

You want to deny any of those statements?

[acemona]

1. Then that would mean there is no clear research that says they don't.

2. We all know that public schools are infallible:rolleyes:

3. Public schools educate everyone?

4. Who cares? There are MANY certified teachers that I would not let teach an underwater basketweaving class.

 

There is research that shows when data is disaggregated for socio-economic status that Charter schools do not perform as well as others.

Public schools are fallible and there are some that are poor, but the brush has been way too broad.

Public schools are statutorily obligated to make an effort to educate everyone - I would say morally as well. This includes students with disabilities. Charters can choose to not educate these folks in the first place, and can counsel them to return to their home public school if things are not working pout well.

I just completed an observation of a teacher who earned her credentials through an alternate route. She said what she needed was more training in pedagogy. Teacher training schools are big on pedagogy.

Teaching is an art and a science. Some people may be naturally gifted at it, but they still need to develop some skills. Certification routes help you gain those skills. There are some certified staff that I don't want teaching my children either, but I would rather take my chances with someone who has be trained than someone who has not.

[Bluegrasscard]

I am talking about the real fact that we don't allow gay marriage in all 50 states is because we 'subjugate' that freedom to the beliefs of religious organizations. What the "Church" believes is more important than the individual rights or citizens to "associate." We can choose to associate with a church, but we cannot choose to associate with a same sex partner in marriage. See how that works?

 

Who was limiting the recognized marriage of the same sex partners - the government. It is the government that limits this - officially. Because it has let the institution of marriage creep into laws about everything from insurance to inheritances to (of course) taxes. It is the government who is the problem - not churches.

 

To prove my point - you are free to start a church - a church that openly recognizes gay marriage. All doable via your Constitutionally protected right of association. It is only when you go register or put a name of same sex couple on a tax return were you then run into problems. If tomorrow 'the churches' recognized same sex 'marriages' the problem would still remain - at the government level.

 

Now many of the religious groups have petitioned to keep the laws or deny the legal relationships. That is their right in a representative government - the right to petition. The libertarian view is that government should just get out of the 'marriage' business all together.

[Bluegrasscard]

There is research that shows when data is disaggregated for socio-economic status that Charter schools do not perform as well as others.

Public schools are fallible and there are some that are poor, but the brush has been way too broad.

Public schools are statutorily obligated to make an effort to educate everyone - I would say morally as well. This includes students with disabilities. Charters can choose to not educate these folks in the first place, and can counsel them to return to their home public school if things are not working pout well.

I just completed an observation of a teacher who earned her credentials through an alternate route. She said what she needed was more training in pedagogy. Teacher training schools are big on pedagogy.

Teaching is an art and a science. Some people may be naturally gifted at it, but they still need to develop some skills. Certification routes help you gain those skills. There are some certified staff that I don't want teaching my children either, but I would rather take my chances with someone who has be trained than someone who has not.

 

Again, a freedom of association issue. Why I am not free to associate with other like minded people to establish a school? Because it competes with the monopoly centralized school run by the government and paid with my (unwilling) tax dollars.

 

The government punishes those who exercise their freedom of association when it comes to schools. Who supports this restriction in a natural right? Often the teachers unions.

 

I support unions in the private sector. They have a place. But when a public union leverages their power to restrict a basic natural right and freedom its a different story.