Same here. I just wish we all truly listened to one another more with compassion instead of completely dismissing the words people are saying because those words make people uncomfortable. Kaepernick has been labeled a clown, an attention prostitute, unpatriotic and hater of all American images because he chose to take a stand against racism in America.

 

He’s the bravest man I have seen in my lifetime.

Right up there with Ali, IMHO.

I think you shortchange yourself big-time here. You may not post about Kap, but you post about racial issues all the time.

 

AND...you post on this site where there are no famous people (except for one child star) and significantly fewer people will see what you're saying & yet you stand anyway.

 

Just my two cents.

I saw that.

I really respect @PurplePride92 and @TheDeuce and their opinions when it comes to topics that tend to appear in the controversial section. I have a question for the two of you:

 

Would you have thought the shoe had racial tones before this report came out? If you happened to see that Nike was releasing this Betsy Ross shoe, would you have thought what Kaepernick thinks before we heard about it? Just curious, no real intent behind the question.

I really respect @PurplePride92 and @TheDeuce and their opinions when it comes to topics that tend to appear in the controversial section. I have a question for the two of you:

 

Would you have thought the shoe had racial tones before this report came out? If you happened to see that Nike was releasing this Betsy Ross shoe, would you have thought what Kaepernick thinks before we heard about it? Just curious, no real intent behind the question.

 

I think the same about this as I do most issues involving race. Even if I don't personally think something is racist or don't find something offensive, it's not my place to try to change someone's mind if they do have an issue with it.

 

As for this specific incident, no, I don't feel exactly how Kaep does about the shoes. But I do understand why he feels the way he does.

For the record another reason Kaepernick objected and spoke up to Nike is because the Betsy Ross flag has been adopted by multiple white nationalist groups as their American flag. It isn’t just because of the 13 stars. It has to do with who that flag is representing in 2019.

 

I did not know this. That changes the way I view Kap's objection.

 

This flag has apparently come into use by white nationalist groups, who use it as a symbol of the United States at a time when white supremacy was enshrined in the Constitution. There was a controversy some years ago about high schoolers somewhere in Michigan flying the flag during a game against a predominantly black school. I don't remember all of the context.

 

See above. Important information for the present discussion. But I do not think the constitution ever enshrined white supremacy. From the beginning it was about freedom for all. To this country's shame, it did not live up to the ideals established in the constitution, which led to suffering for those not included, and bloodshed was required to begin to extend justice to everyone.

 

The controlled part is huge though. Folks get to talking super crazy on social media and I hate a wasted discussion. At least on here I can attempt to make a point or two and even if it feels like the conversation is going nowhere I don’t have to worry about personal attacks or obtuse statements. Folks are going to believe what they are trained to believe. I’ll still always attempt a civil conversation. It’ll be an uncomfortable conversation but it will be civil.

 

I so appreciate this PP92, even when I disagree with you. You have helped me to see a different perspective on some race issues that I just did not get the first 5 or 6 times it was expressed. I hope you will continue to express your opinion because I have learned from it. I try to be courteous, take what is said in the best light, and assume good motives rather than poor motives. I think it makes for dialogue that may lead to understanding and even may change one's thinking and behavior.

 

I agree. I mentioned it in another thread a couple of months ago but the psychology of black people in America is often dismissed. I think it is important for everyone to understand or at least be compassionate to that psychology in these type of discussions. We, (Me) can’t change the way our brains have been trained. I can’t change my psychology after 44 years and counting of having this mentality as an American and I don’t expect anyone to be able to change theirs. I’m only human and I’ll shut down just as quickly as anyone if I feel like nothing I say matters. When I hear or see someone speaking up and saying something I agree with(Kaepernick) and then they get slammed, ridiculed and dismissed by everyone it’s real easy to lose hope and that always sucks.

 

See above. This is the only place where it seems comfortable (to me) to discuss such issues. "Comfortable" is a relative term. I guess I mean not uncomfortable enough to squelch risking a conversation. Sometimes I think the psychology is counter-productive, but I need to better understand it if I ever hope to communicate in a dialogue. That dialogue may lead me to better appreciate the psychology and why it is so important to the conversation at hand. I'm trying to be open to a different perspective than my own.

 

Regarding the national anthem v. 3: I did not know v. 3 until you first mentioned it in this thread. I am not sure Francis Scott Key meant it in the way it is sometimes taken. It may be a matter of perspective. In a discussion about race, it can be seen as a reference to slavery and it appears he does not care if "hirelings and slaves" die. I read an article about it in the Star Tribune of Minneapolis. The columnist pointed out Francis Scott Key's flawed history regarding slavery and race issues. We will grant he was racist. But then the author notes that the phrase many find offensive probably refers to mercenaries fighting with the British army (Hussians did so during the Revolutionary war period) as the "hirelings" Key referenced, and British-born soldiers as "slaves" since all citizens of England were the subjects of the Monarch. His intent is to contrast those fighting on the British side ("hirelings and slave") with those fighting on the American side (the "free and the brave"). The British are retreating or dying while the Americans triumph as demonstrated by "the flag that doth wave". Slave, wave, brave. It rhymes. It seems this interpretation is probably what Key intended. But, I am glad we do not sing the third verse.

I think the same about this as I do most issues involving race. Even if I don't personally think something is racist or don't find something offensive, it's not my place to try to change someone's mind if they do have an issue with it.

 

As for this specific incident, no, I don't feel exactly how Kaep does about the shoes. But I do understand why he feels the way he does.

 

Well put. I do think people(myself included) are guilty at times of viewing someone's support of an individual to mean they have the exact same feelings on the controversial subject as that individual.

I so appreciate this PP92, even when I disagree with you. You have helped me to see a different perspective on some race issues that I just did not get the first 5 or 6 times it was expressed. I hope you will continue to express your opinion because I have learned from it. I try to be courteous, take what is said in the best light, and assume good motives rather than poor motives. I think it makes for dialogue that may lead to understanding and even may change one's thinking and behavior.

 

Thank you for sharing this. It's important to know that some people will actually admit to having learned something about a different perspective. I know I have personally grown to be able to at least try to understand other's points of view, even if I don't agree.

Well put. I do think people(myself included) are guilty at times of viewing someone's support of an individual to mean they have the exact same feelings on the controversial subject as that individual.

 

Yep. That's one of the biggest issues we face as a society.

While I understand the objection and get the business decision made, what I do not like about it is that I feel it gives more legitimacy to these groups. The hate groups using the Betsy Ross flag (although from what I read it does not seem like a prevalent or well-known/universal thing) do not own the flags or what it was to represent in Nike's design. This effectively allows the hate groups to define the message as to what it means and gives them ownership of it. This time yesterday 99% of people had no clue some fringe people might use a classic American flag for their own bigoted self-interests. Today, 99% of America know some fringe groups may use this symbol, but it has been given much more power than it ever would garner otherwise.

I really respect @PurplePride92 and @TheDeuce and their opinions when it comes to topics that tend to appear in the controversial section. I have a question for the two of you:

 

Would you have thought the shoe had racial tones before this report came out? If you happened to see that Nike was releasing this Betsy Ross shoe, would you have thought what Kaepernick thinks before we heard about it? Just curious, no real intent behind the question.

 

My first thoughts wouldn’t have been Kaepernick’s thoughts but his brain is much deeper than mine. He points out things to me that I wish my own brain would point out to me.

 

When I first heard about the shoes it was on twitter with folks whining about what Kaepernick did this time and the first thing I thought before researching was that those are some ugly shoes that no one was ever going to buy anyways. This is a win-win for Nike.

While I understand the objection and get the business decision made, what I do not like about it is that I feel it gives more legitimacy to these groups. The hate groups using the Betsy Ross flag (although from what I read it does not seem like a prevalent or well-known/universal thing) do not own the flags or what it was to represent in Nike's design. This effectively allows the hate groups to define the message as to what it means and gives them ownership of it. This time yesterday 99% of people had no clue some fringe people might use a classic American flag for their own bigoted self-interests. Today, 99% of America know some fringe groups may use this symbol, but it has been given much more power than it ever would garner otherwise.

 

Which raises the question....why are these groups allowed to exist in the first place? Shouldn’t they be labeled domestic terrorists and locked up? People act like if we just ignore their existence that they will go away but the fact remains that they are growing stronger each day.

My first thoughts wouldn’t have been Kaepernick’s thoughts but his brain is much deeper than mine. He points out things to me that I wish my own brain would point out to me.

 

When I first heard about the shoes it was on twitter with folks whining about what Kaepernick did this time and the first thing I thought before researching was that those are some ugly shoes that no one was ever going to buy anyways. This is a win-win for Nike.

 

That's not the first thing you thought.

 

First thing you thought was: "Those are some ugly shoes but I bet Hatz is buying a pair." :lol2::walk:

Which raises the question....why are these groups allowed to exist in the first place? Shouldn’t they be labeled domestic terrorists and locked up? People act like if we just ignore their existence that they will go away but the fact remains that they are growing stronger each day.

 

That's exactly what they are, domestic terrorists. But nobody wants to have that conversation.

While I understand the objection and get the business decision made, what I do not like about it is that I feel it gives more legitimacy to these groups. The hate groups using the Betsy Ross flag (although from what I read it does not seem like a prevalent or well-known/universal thing) do not own the flags or what it was to represent in Nike's design. This effectively allows the hate groups to define the message as to what it means and gives them ownership of it. This time yesterday 99% of people had no clue some fringe people might use a classic American flag for their own bigoted self-interests. Today, 99% of America know some fringe groups may use this symbol, but it has been given much more power than it ever would garner otherwise.

 

If 99% of America knows some fringe groups use this flag as a symbol and now prominent people are saying they would be first in line to buy these shoes if Nike sells them, should I be offended, bothered and concerned?

 

Seems like if the right prominent people are saying this then they are empowering these groups even more.

Which raises the question....why are these groups allowed to exist in the first place? Shouldn’t they be labeled domestic terrorists and locked up? People act like if we just ignore their existence that they will go away but the fact remains that they are growing stronger each day.

 

That's exactly what they are, domestic terrorists. But nobody wants to have that conversation.

 

There are lots of "hate groups" but they have 1st Amendment protection so I don't see how anyone can be locked up based on thoughts and words.

 

What we have is another form of "Corporate Justice" looking out for number one.