Could satan ask God to forgive him and what would happen?

[PP1]

I do not believe anyone is in Hell right now.

 

An interesting topic from about ten years ago was whether or not Jesus was in Hell. During those three days between his death and resurrection he had to be somewhere.

 

Some people say heaven, others Abraham's bosom, others Sheol, and some people think he was in Hell because he had the sin of the world on him.

 

The mormons used to think that he went to America to preach to the native Americans. I do not know if they still believe that or not.

[The Professor]

1) God often uses sin to achieve his will.

2) Without Satan, man would not have free will to reject God.

 

God uses Satan to achieve his will. So, are we so sure that Satan is indeed an adversary of God, or his tool (servant)?

I enjoy reading these discussions and since free will has been mentioned maybe some of you can help me out on this topic, because it has always confused me.

 

I've often wondered about free will. I believe everyone has the free will to do whatever their next choice is but I've always had difficulty with how many interpret the term from a religious viewpoint. Most explanations don't make much sense to me.

 

In my viewpoint if God is All-Knowing then He already knows what one's free will choices are before they make them. If those choices are bad, and He is also All-Merciful, He can utilize His ability as All-Powerful to change the bad to good so people don't get harmed. Take the Oklahoma City bombing as an example. God knew what Timothy McVeigh was going to do on that terrible day before McVeigh was born. He knew it before McVeigh did. Pick out any date from the past, 1742 AD, 1243 AD, 210 BC, it doesn't matter. Because God is All-Knowing He knew on those dates what would happen in Oklahoma that date in 1995 AD. He has to know, or He isn't All-Knowing.

 

168 people died that day, many of them small children and infants. If God is All-Merciful how can He allow that to happen. He can stop it before it happens. He can stop McVeigh in his tracks before the disaster occurs. Being All-Knowing, God knew thousands of years before McVeigh was born what would happen on that fateful day, and it wasn't good as we well know. He knew the exact free will choices that McVeigh would make. If God already knew what his choices would be, how is it Free Will? Is it no more McVeigh's will than it would be God's will.

 

An All-Merciful and All-Powerful God doesn't permit this tragedy to occur, it seems to me, and the 168 people live for another day. Same can be said for the Las Vegas massacre.

 

I know this is an ancient topic, dating back even before Biblical times, but I am just interested in what everyone's thoughts are on this subject.

[Science Friction]

I do not believe anyone is in Hell right now.

 

An interesting topic from about ten years ago was whether or not Jesus was in Hell. During those three days between his death and resurrection he had to be somewhere.

 

Some people say heaven, others Abraham's bosom, others Sheol, and some people think he was in Hell because he had the sin of the world on him.

 

The mormons used to think that he went to America to preach to the native Americans. I do not know if they still believe that or not.

 

 

 

 

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? --- Ephesians 4:8-9 KJV

 

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

--- Matthew 12:40 KJV

[PP1]

 

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

--- Matthew 12:40 KJV

 

There are people that believe this to mean Jesus was unconcious in the heart of the tomb and basically slept for 3 days. I wonder if his sould went somewhere else. IDK

[Hatz]

I enjoy reading these discussions and since free will has been mentioned maybe some of you can help me out on this topic, because it has always confused me.

 

I've often wondered about free will. I believe everyone has the free will to do whatever their next choice is but I've always had difficulty with how many interpret the term from a religious viewpoint. Most explanations don't make much sense to me.

 

In my viewpoint if God is All-Knowing then He already knows what one's free will choices are before they make them. If those choices are bad, and He is also All-Merciful, He can utilize His ability as All-Powerful to change the bad to good so people don't get harmed. Take the Oklahoma City bombing as an example. God knew what Timothy McVeigh was going to do on that terrible day before McVeigh was born. He knew it before McVeigh did. Pick out any date from the past, 1742 AD, 1243 AD, 210 BC, it doesn't matter. Because God is All-Knowing He knew on those dates what would happen in Oklahoma that date in 1995 AD. He has to know, or He isn't All-Knowing.

 

168 people died that day, many of them small children and infants. If God is All-Merciful how can He allow that to happen. He can stop it before it happens. He can stop McVeigh in his tracks before the disaster occurs. Being All-Knowing, God knew thousands of years before McVeigh was born what would happen on that fateful day, and it wasn't good as we well know. He knew the exact free will choices that McVeigh would make. If God already knew what his choices would be, how is it Free Will? Is it no more McVeigh's will than it would be God's will.

 

An All-Merciful and All-Powerful God doesn't permit this tragedy to occur, it seems to me, and the 168 people live for another day. Same can be said for the Las Vegas massacre.

 

I know this is an ancient topic, dating back even before Biblical times, but I am just interested in what everyone's thoughts are on this subject.

 

Theodicy is the greatest problem for God discussion.

 

Is knowing the same as permission?

 

It’s a poor illustration but as a parent I have a good idea what my children will likely do in certain scenarios and decisions. I can offer my advice and counsel to steer them but in the end I have to leave it up to them. They are responsible and will reap the results. Those results will likely impact people beyond themselves.

 

Am I horrible for allowing them freedom to choose their course?

 

That has been my observation for years.

 

God knows us and transcends time and history. Does that make God uncaring that God allows free will to run its course because God sees beyond the temporal?

 

Some would argue a predestination stance of God ordaining all things. I would lean more heavily on God knowing all things but not agreeing with all that transpires. Does that make God impotent in acting in our world? Not, IMO, if God is putting limitations God sets for God’s self.

 

Not looking to answer your question Professor but laying out thoughts for discussion that have led me down my road.

[The Professor]

Theodicy is the greatest problem for God discussion.

 

Is knowing the same as permission?

 

It’s a poor illustration but as a parent I have a good idea what my children will likely do in certain scenarios and decisions. I can offer my advice and counsel to steer them but in the end I have to leave it up to them. They are responsible and will reap the results. Those results will likely impact people beyond themselves.

 

Am I horrible for allowing them freedom to choose their course?

 

That has been my observation for years.

 

God knows us and transcends time and history. Does that make God uncaring that God allows free will to run its course because God sees beyond the temporal?

 

Some would argue a predestination stance of God ordaining all things. I would lean more heavily on God knowing all things but not agreeing with all that transpires. Does that make God impotent in acting in our world? Not, IMO, if God is putting limitations God sets for God’s self.

 

Not looking to answer your question Professor but laying out thoughts for discussion that have led me down my road.

 

Thanks Hatz!

 

I suppose what really puzzles me on this subject is if an All-Good, All-Powerful and All -Knowing God already knew what Timothy McVeigh was going to do that tragic day in 1995 in Oklahoma City, before McVeigh was even born——- why allow him to be born in the first place? It appears to me that would make McVeigh’s future life predestined instead of free will. God had the chance to stop a bad thing from happening before it happened, and before McVeigh was an earthling. God’s power of All Seeing/All Knowing eliminates the philosophy of free will.

It’s one thing to say God gives his children free will to make their own decisions and not interfere, but it’s another thing when God already knows in advance what those choices will be.

[Hatz]

Thanks Hatz!

 

I suppose what really puzzles me on this subject is if an All-Good, All-Powerful and All -Knowing God already knew what Timothy McVeigh was going to do that tragic day in 1995 in Oklahoma City, before McVeigh was even born——- why allow him to be born in the first place? It appears to me that would make McVeigh’s future life predestined instead of free will. God had the chance to stop a bad thing from happening before it happened, and before McVeigh was an earthling. God’s power of All Seeing/All Knowing eliminates the philosophy of free will.

It’s one thing to say God gives his children free will to make their own decisions and not interfere, but it’s another thing when God already knows in advance what those choices will be.

 

I feel your honest struggle. I again go back to knowledge as different than pre determined.

 

Job demands of God an accounting. God shows up and basically explains that Job is mortal and unable to fathom God’s self. I know it smacks vs our reason but when dealing with an “other than” being there will always be mystery. Living in that mystery is a key in my experience. It doesn’t mean giving up our search or questions but learning how to live with silence and mystery.