June 25, 201511 yr Can I keep my statue and shrine to General Sherman? If Washington had made good on Sherman's promise of "40 acres and a mule", the 100 years that followed the end of the war could have conceivably been a lot better for folks down there. I don't know if A. Johnson ranks at the bottom of the all-time list of presidents, but he's right down there. Sherman was a complicated man and brutally efficient at his appointed task, but he didn't have any delusions about the South suddenly re-entering the union, freeing the slaves, and everything suddenly being ok for everyone. He knew how things would go if no direct action was taken: as close as possible to the old way. Yeah, you can keep your Sherman shrine.
June 25, 201511 yr True, Lincoln really only used slavery as something to rally around to maintain the union...that was his priority. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the states that had seceded, it didn't free slaves in Kentucky or any other state that didn't officially secede. Thankfully all were freed later in 1865 with the ratification of the 13th Amendment Thank you, Thaddeus Stevens.
June 25, 201511 yr It's a symbol representing the southern states leaving our country over their believed right to own slaves. You can't argue against that, because it's the truth. It's definitely used as a symbol of hate, which is why you see white supremisist groups flying it. To me personally, I automatically assume that anyone flying it is racist, and ignorant... But, I would never want the flag to be "outlawed" in this country. People have the right to be racist and ignorant.
June 25, 201511 yr "Put the slave issue aside..." The post was more meant in jest and maybe a funny topic for another thread. While the US has a bad past, I do not think it would have evolved in to a third world country with an open slave trade in 2015. Asking "what if ..." is always entertaining. I believe Brazil was the last country to ban slavery, in the 1880s, so had the South prevailed, a similar expiration date likely would have occurred in Dixie, especially since Europe was obtaining cotton from other places.
June 25, 201511 yr Just a "Common" man Fascinating guy. That whole group of Radical Republicans was extremely fascinating: Stevens, Charles Sumner, and even Kentucky's own James Speed, who was Lincoln and Johnson's Attorney General and resigned from the cabinet because of Johnson's methods of reconstruction.
June 25, 201511 yr Just a "Common" man Fascinating guy. That whole group of Radical Republicans was extremely fascinating: Stevens, Charles Sumner, and even Kentucky's own James Speed, who was Lincoln and Johnson's Attorney General.
June 25, 201511 yr True, Lincoln really only used slavery as something to rally around to maintain the union... This is backwards. Lincoln's views on slavery were well known before his election. His "House Divided" speech during the Lincoln-Douglas debates in 1858 were cited in South Carolina's secession statement I posted earlier. Furthermore, the Republican Party was able to emerge as bonafide party because abolitionists had nowhere else to turn. It's of course true Lincoln fought to keep the Union whole. But, the notion that he simply used slavery as a piece of propaganda is backwards. He feared the North would lack the willingness to fight the war if they saw it as only a crusade against slavery, but they would fight the war to preserve the Union. He resisted calls from abolitionists like Frederick Douglass to make the end of slavery the explicit purpose of the war for this reason. Of course, Lincoln eventually relented, issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. It's true it only applied to states in rebellion. Lincoln said he had no constitutional authority to end it in the Union, and if he did it would be overturned, which is why he endorsed the Thirteenth Amendment as a solution.
June 25, 201511 yr Admittedly, I am somewhat surprised by the amount of negative feelings towards the removal of this flag. If you think this flag represents you in some way, then in my eyes, that says a lot about you.
June 25, 201511 yr This is backwards. Lincoln's views on slavery were well known before his election. His "House Divided" speech during the Lincoln-Douglas debates in 1858 were cited in South Carolina's secession statement I posted earlier. Furthermore, the Republican Party was able to emerge as bonafide party because abolitionists had nowhere else to turn. It's of course true Lincoln fought to keep the Union whole. But, the notion that he simply used slavery as a piece of propaganda is backwards. He feared the North would lack the willingness to fight the war if they saw it as only a crusade against slavery, but they would fight the war to preserve the Union. He resisted calls from abolitionists like Frederick Douglass to make the end of slavery the explicit purpose of the war for this reason. Of course, Lincoln eventually relented, issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. It's true it only applied to states in rebellion. Lincoln said he had no constitutional authority to end it in the Union, and if he did it would be overturned, which is why he endorsed the Thirteenth Amendment as a solution. I agree with what you are saying, but Lincoln could/should have freed all of the slaves...not just the ones in the seceded states...that fact that he didn't is telling that keeping the Union together was more important than slavery at that point to him.
June 25, 201511 yr ...that fact that he didn't is telling that keeping the Union together was more important than slavery at that point to him. I agree. Don't forget that Lincoln fired Pathfinder Fremont as head of the army in Missouri early in the war for issuing his own emancipation proclamation in that border state, and later sent highly successful Gen. Sam Curtis (Pea Ridge, Helena) to the western frontier for espousing his abolitionist views.
June 25, 201511 yr Admittedly, I am somewhat surprised by the amount of negative feelings towards the removal of this flag. If you think this flag represents you in some way, then in my eyes, that says a lot about you. And their heritage.
June 25, 201511 yr For what it's worth, I'm absolutely not in favor of banning anything. The discussion about what the flag has represented since it was first woven does far more good than any law could ever do. Laws banning Nazi paraphernalia in places like Germany and France have had plenty of negative externalities. It's simply driven the wannabe Nazis underground and made them attractive to dissidents or punks or the disaffected. There's something trite and mundane about groups of idiots who are allowed to stand in the public square waving their flags and regalia where everyone can see them and identify them for what they are. At any rate, it makes no sense for state and local governments to be endorsing this flag and these governments ought to stop it. That's a far cry from banning the flag, however.
June 25, 201511 yr I agree with what you are saying, but Lincoln could/should have freed all of the slaves...not just the ones in the seceded states...that fact that he didn't is telling that keeping the Union together was more important than slavery at that point to him. Or it's telling that he had no civil authority at that time over the seceding states.
June 25, 201511 yr "Put the slave issue aside..." The post was more meant in jest and maybe a funny topic for another thread. While the US has a bad past, I do not think it would have evolved in to a third world country with an open slave trade in 2015. I do.
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