No, if you take out a young pitcher after he had thrown 103 pitches over 6 strong innings in 90+ degree heat with a 1-0 lead and turned it over to a bullpen that has been in the top 10 in ERA this season you would have heard very few complaints from most Reds fans. If Leake regularly threw 120 pitches in a game it wouldn't have been a big deal but he usually throws between 85-100 pitches. Or if the bullpen was used up it wouldn't have been a big deal. Neither of those were the case. Leake was right at his pitch limit to begin the inning, he was gassed. Don't forget the ball that was hammered down the line and incorrectly called foul--he actually should have exited with runners on 2nd and 3rd, not 1st and 3rd. Sure the pen might have blown the game but if it did I'd be complaining about the relievers because then Dusty would have simply be calling on them to do their job. If they didn't do that it would be on them, not Dusty. That is Dusty's biggest problem he put a young pitcher in a spot where he had a significant chance to fail.

 

I don't believe that is true, as usual its very easy to say things after the fact. I have seen people complain about Dusty FOR ANY LITTLE THING. I believe we would have heard just as many people complain about Dusty starting the bullpen that inning, if they did bad, as we did for him starting Leake that inning. I have many reds threads to prove about people finding stuff to complain on Dusty about, especially when it comes to a situation that did not work. If he started the pen that inning and it didn't work then you definitely would have had people complaining about that. Basically if it does not work, then people blame him. Just like if Leake had a 1,2,3 inning, I doubt we hear anyone come on here and complain about man it worked but Dusty should have started the pen that inning. No one would have complained at all, it all comes down to if it works or not. The only way Dusty might have gotten out of it without people complaining is if he started Leake that inning, and then as soon as one person got on base taken him out.

I didn't see the game, but from what I've read, I would say taking Leake out of the game would be the right call. It's a hot day, he's at 103 pitches and he's a young pitcher that had to be shut down last year because of workload issues. If Leake gave you six solid innings, he did his job. The bullpen has been solid, and you have to trust the bullpen to get it done. It's just that in this case they didn't get it done.

Maybe on the BGP bus but not elsewhere. I bet if you took a poll in the general public, Dusty has more that view him favorably than unfavorably.

 

I'd take that bet in a heart beat.

 

VOR must be talking about fans in St. Louis, Milwaukee and Pittsburgh.

 

Early in the Dusty Poll, the naysayers are losing 11-8. Honestly, it is closer than I thought it would be. I am expecting about 70% in favor of Dusty and 30% say fire him.

I don't believe that is true, as usual its very easy to say things after the fact. I have seen people complain about Dusty FOR ANY LITTLE THING. I believe we would have heard just as many people complain about Dusty starting the bullpen that inning, if they did bad, as we did for him starting Leake that inning. I have many reds threads to prove about people finding stuff to complain on Dusty about, especially when it comes to a situation that did not work. If he started the pen that inning and it didn't work then you definitely would have had people complaining about that. Basically if it does not work, then people blame him. Just like if Leake had a 1,2,3 inning, I doubt we hear anyone come on here and complain about man it worked but Dusty should have started the pen that inning. No one would have complained at all, it all comes down to if it works or not. The only way Dusty might have gotten out of it without people complaining is if he started Leake that inning, and then as soon as one person got on base taken him out.

 

Go back and read the others who have commented on this situation. You are in the minority. I don't regularly comment and/or bash Dusty but that was a bad decision. I'm a Red Sox fan but I regularly watch the Reds games on TV while watching the Sox on the computer. The decision in last night's game just seemed extremely poor to me. What about Leake's pitch total? You've failed to mention that at all.

Oh really? Can you prove this? I mean your baseball "sense" by all indications would have been wrong last night based on what we saw from those same relievers he probably would have used to start the inning. Now you can say well it might have went different, if they started the inning which your right it could have. Just like the inning could have went different if he left Leake in to face Beltran and maybe got that double play ball. This is something we will never know.

 

The real question is what really is baseball sense. I mean if someone goes by the numbers all the time, that guy could get killed like Dusty has since he follows the book a lot if it doesn't work. Or if someone decides to make a gut instinct, and it doesn't work then people will show you the numbers and what should have been done. Dusty actually didn't follow the numbers for once, and yet people still complain. So what makes baseball sense? Basically what makes it is if the decision works, if the decision doesn't work then people will say it was the wrong decision and should have done this. If he started the pen that inning, and they do still score 4. Then people with baseball sense as you say could say he should have let Leake stay in. He was doing great, and would have started the inning against the opposing pitcher so why take him out. So I would gladly take my baseball sense against yours any day, and would come up with decisions that probably work just as much as yours. Which honestly besides this, from what I read I agree with a lot of the stuff you say. So we probably wouldn't have to many decisions that were different anyways. This just goes back to my original comment and that is Dusty was in a lose-lose situation last night no matter what decision he made if he didn't work out.

 

 

Sure I can prove it. All I need to prove it is that you think it was a good idea to leave Leake in the game last night. I don't care what the results were. The bullpen was rested. Leake was already at 103 pitches, and had been pitching in extreme heat all day. As HT pointed out Leake averages around 87 pitches a game. The bullpen was fully rested. The Reds have been trying to limit his innings. There was no logical reason to run Leake back out there. None whatsoever.

By the way, before futurecoach blows a gasket with my last post, I don't want anyone to think I'm being a jerk, and saying I know more about baseball than everyone else on here. Everyone obviously has their own opinion( Mine is always right ), and that is what this message board is all about. If you guys think Dusty is doing a great job, then that's great. I obviously think he is a terrible in game manager. As I've stated before he has some good qualities that you want in your manager, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives, and I would love nothing more for him to be fired. I realize it's not going to happen anytime soon, but that won't stop me from criticizing Johnny B, no matter how much Blue Magic may protest.

Once again Dusty Baker showed everyone just what he knows about handling a pitching staff/in game pitching decisions............Nothing !!!

Dusty should never have started that inning with Leake. The kid had pitched another good game but he was done. Leake was already over 100 pitches. Leake was obviously tired and once again a very good outing was shot.

 

My week's up but I'll try to not blast the man too much for another week since it really does no good but to make me feel better. Imo there was only one reason why Dusty ran him back out there. Leake was due up 3rd in the bottom and he already had his plans for a double switch when his spot came up. I've said this before he is one stubborn man! He could have gone to Bray or Chapman and then pinch hit for them in the bottom but he had his plan set and it back fired.

San Diego masks a lot of pitchers' mistakes.

 

So what if he is fine, now?

 

These are Harang's numbers with the Reds from 2005 until before the relief outing in San Diego:

 

752.1 IP, 745 H, 45-36 record, 3.74 ERA, 177 BB, 660 SO ... 1.226 WHIP

 

Now, his time with the Reds after that outing:

 

379.2 IP, 455 H, 16-32 record, 5.00 ERA, 112 BB, 305 SO ... 1.493 WHIP

 

You still don't think it had any long-term bearing on his effectiveness with the Reds? If not, it's quite a coincidence.

 

I refuse to believe that, with two off-seasons, that extra outing effected him that much. The rest of that season, possibly. 3 seasons, not likely.

Maybe we should just give Dusty a break here. I guess it's possible he thought the pitch count was at 83.

 

That's funny. Can't you depend on the board for everything?

Harang 9-2, 3.45 ernie without the toothpick. Just sayin'.

 

Pitching @ Petco makes everybody a better pitcher but he is 4-0 on the road although his era is 4.30 on the road and 2.92 at home.

I'm extremly jealous. Apparently, there are quite a few on here that are sitting in the dugout with Baker, get to see his scouting reports, consult with all of his players and coaches...etc, and my poor behind is just sitting at home watching on TV. I'm envious.

Leake wasn't the problem. The problem was leaving Leake in

 

I agree that Ondrusek was the main reason they lost. I still feel Dusty leaving Leake in didn't give them the best chance to win. The best chance was Bray or Chapman starting that inning or at the very least facing Reyes.

 

We both agree that the manager's main job is to put the players in the best position to win and I feel this is the one area that Dusty fails in badly.

I'm extremly jealous. Apparently, there are quite a few on here that are sitting in the dugout with Baker, get to see his scouting reports, consult with all of his players and coaches...etc, and my poor behind is just sitting at home watching on TV. I'm envious.

 

Do you really need a scouting report to realize that a pitcher is spent?

Add another .5 to that ERA in GABP. Not to mention the psychological impact of GABP versus San Diego canyon. I have no doubt pitching at GABP makes pitchers throw scared. In a ballpark like San Diego, just ease up, throw it down the middle and say good luck. Pitchers get a lot more aggressive and it impacts their whole mindset at home and away.

 

You hit the nail on the head. The Reds could really use a pitching coach in the minors to teach all the young pitchers a sinker or split finger. Maybe they have this but I don't see a lot of sinkers being thrown. Homer Bailey has done a much better job of keeping the ball down and has been throwing a split finger. If pitchers are going to do well in great American Smallpark they will have to pitch that way.

He's the first manager to extend a pitcher? Considering I don't see him throw every day and know his mechanics, I couldn't tell if he was spent or not. Maybe he has good #'s against the batters coming up. Maybe he's telling Dusty and Price that he feels great and wants the ball. Who knows, which is exactly my point.