And you would lose in a landslide.

 

I sense a challenge....

My dad could beat up your dad... Leaving Leake in wasn't that big of a deal IMO. He probably should have started off the inning with the Pen but if he did and they gave up the lead you could would have been killing Dusty.

I conceded that it could've affected him short term but no way it affected him long term.

Harang hasn't been the same since ... it probably isn't a coincidence.

Harang hasn't been the same since ... it probably isn't a coincidence.

 

What year was that?

What year was that?

Harang and Volquez ...

My dad could beat up your dad... Leaving Leake in wasn't that big of a deal IMO. He probably should have started off the inning with the Pen but if he did and they gave up the lead you could would have been killing Dusty.

 

 

Not here. The smart thing to do was start the inning with the pen. What happened after that wouldn't have been on Dusty.

Harang and Volquez ...

 

He seems to be fine now. Hell, he should've had Tommy John and shoulder surgery, he would've been back sooner.

And you would lose in a landslide.

 

Oh really? Can you prove this? I mean your baseball "sense" by all indications would have been wrong last night based on what we saw from those same relievers he probably would have used to start the inning. Now you can say well it might have went different, if they started the inning which your right it could have. Just like the inning could have went different if he left Leake in to face Beltran and maybe got that double play ball. This is something we will never know.

 

The real question is what really is baseball sense. I mean if someone goes by the numbers all the time, that guy could get killed like Dusty has since he follows the book a lot if it doesn't work. Or if someone decides to make a gut instinct, and it doesn't work then people will show you the numbers and what should have been done. Dusty actually didn't follow the numbers for once, and yet people still complain. So what makes baseball sense? Basically what makes it is if the decision works, if the decision doesn't work then people will say it was the wrong decision and should have done this. If he started the pen that inning, and they do still score 4. Then people with baseball sense as you say could say he should have let Leake stay in. He was doing great, and would have started the inning against the opposing pitcher so why take him out. So I would gladly take my baseball sense against yours any day, and would come up with decisions that probably work just as much as yours. Which honestly besides this, from what I read I agree with a lot of the stuff you say. So we probably wouldn't have to many decisions that were different anyways. This just goes back to my original comment and that is Dusty was in a lose-lose situation last night no matter what decision he made if he didn't work out.

Not here. The smart thing to do was start the inning with the pen. What happened after that wouldn't have been on Dusty.

 

Easy to say after seeing the results of what happened. If Leake has a 1,2,3 inning, I doubt we hear you say the smart thing would have been to start the inning. It was only the wrong decision since it didn't work.

He seems to be fine now. Hell, he should've had Tommy John and shoulder surgery, he would've been back sooner.

San Diego masks a lot of pitchers' mistakes.

 

So what if he is fine, now?

 

These are Harang's numbers with the Reds from 2005 until before the relief outing in San Diego:

 

752.1 IP, 745 H, 45-36 record, 3.74 ERA, 177 BB, 660 SO ... 1.226 WHIP

 

Now, his time with the Reds after that outing:

 

379.2 IP, 455 H, 16-32 record, 5.00 ERA, 112 BB, 305 SO ... 1.493 WHIP

 

You still don't think it had any long-term bearing on his effectiveness with the Reds? If not, it's quite a coincidence.

Now I am done sticking up for Dusty, because most of the time I am like the rest of you on the decisions he makes. However last night he was in a lose-lose situation IMO no matter what he did if it didn't work.

Now I am done sticking up for Dusty, because most of the time I am like the rest of you on the decisions he makes. However last night he was in a lose-lose situation IMO no matter what he did if it didn't work.

 

No, if you take out a young pitcher after he had thrown 103 pitches over 6 strong innings in 90+ degree heat with a 1-0 lead and turned it over to a bullpen that has been in the top 10 in ERA this season you would have heard very few complaints from most Reds fans. If Leake regularly threw 120 pitches in a game it wouldn't have been a big deal but he usually throws between 85-100 pitches. Or if the bullpen was used up it wouldn't have been a big deal. Neither of those were the case. Leake was right at his pitch limit to begin the inning, he was gassed. Don't forget the ball that was hammered down the line and incorrectly called foul--he actually should have exited with runners on 2nd and 3rd, not 1st and 3rd. Sure the pen might have blown the game but if it did I'd be complaining about the relievers because then Dusty would have simply be calling on them to do their job. If they didn't do that it would be on them, not Dusty. That is Dusty's biggest problem he put a young pitcher in a spot where he had a significant chance to fail.

No, if you take out a young pitcher after he had thrown 103 pitches over 6 strong innings in 90+ degree heat with a 1-0 lead and turned it over to a bullpen that has been in the top 10 in ERA this season you would have heard very few complaints from most Reds fans. If Leake regularly threw 120 pitches in a game it wouldn't have been a big deal but he usually throws between 85-100 pitches. Or if the bullpen was used up it wouldn't have been a big deal. Neither of those were the case. Leake was right at his pitch limit to begin the inning, he was gassed. Don't forget the ball that was hammered down the line and incorrectly called foul--he actually should have exited with runners on 2nd and 3rd, not 1st and 3rd. Sure the pen might have blown the game but if it did I'd be complaining about the relievers because then Dusty would have simply be calling on them to do their job. If they didn't do that it would be on them, not Dusty. That is Dusty's biggest problem he put a young pitcher in a spot where he had a significant chance to fail.

 

Before the game he was averaging 87 pitches a game I believe.

Before the game he was averaging 87 pitches a game I believe.

 

Exactly.

OK, everyone. Let's see where the fans stand on Dusty. It isn't scientific because it will only include BGP posters, but I created a new thread specifically to allow the BGP posters to vote on Dusty Baker. I am leaving it open for one week. Let's see what happens.