Bush halts Iraq withdrawals, cuts tours of duty

[leatherneck]

I know what you are saying LN, but I don't think that is the proper analogy. These guys don't see themselves as "losers" so why do they want to change? A better analogy would be trying to take a winning football program and trying to get them to give up football in favor of...say, chess.

 

Contrary to what you read and believe from the newspapers, not every one in the middle east is a ruthless idealogue and religious fanatic, wanting to kill everyone that doesn't think the same things that they do. I don't know where you live, but if you have the opportunity, reach out and talk to some people from the middle east or with family in the middle east. You'd be surprised how wrong the stereotype that we are given about people from the middle east is. You'll find that there is a very big segment of the people that wants to live in peace and is tolerant of other religions and sects. Right now, they are afraid to do anything about it (although things are fortunately changing in Iraq) and everytime people talk about how we need to leave Iraq and leave soon, those people wanting change become more and more reluctant to help bring about change because they fear we are going to abandon them. Our country unfortunately has a track record of encouraging people to stick their necks out and then we abandon them.

 

We can bring stability and prosperity to the middle east. Of course if you have the attitude that we can't, that we'll lose, then we won't bring any change.

[02Ram54]

They want peace, but not on our terms. They don't want a society based on Enlightenment farmer-aristocrats of the eighteenth century, they want a society based on tribal ties. Iraq is never going to look like the stable, pro-American democracy that was sold to us five years ago, even in a best case scenario (which gets defined downward almost every time its examined.).

 

Democracy isn't just a plug-and-go tool, we can't just drop it in the lap of a fractured society to which it is a foreign concept and expect things to work as if Iraq were turned into Idaho; instead we get situations like Hamas winning elections in Palestinian territory and warlords ruling Afghanistan.

 

If Iraq is ever stable with its current boundaries, my personal opinion is that we've created an ally for Iran, not the United States. We might have removed Saddam's boot from their necks, but gratitude has never counted for all that much in international politics outside of convenient rhetoric.

[cooperstown]

Got to be honest leatherneck, attitudes aren't universal and they don't apply to all scenarios equally.

 

Football is a game. Plain and simple. It has wonderful attributes that teach life lessons that can be employed elsewhere.

 

War, Blood Feuds, CENTURIES of rivalry and distrust are not things that Vince Lombardi can merely change with a pep talk and a hard work attitude that says, "IF we just show them what we have, then they will have to see how much better that is." The news is that some peoples in this world don't want what we have or the life we have. To impose it instead of letting it grow on its own is a mistake IMHO. :thumb:

 

Very nicely stated. :thumb:

[True blue (and gold)]

Contrary to what you read and believe from the newspapers, not every one in the middle east is a ruthless idealogue and religious fanatic, wanting to kill everyone that doesn't think the same things that they do. I don't know where you live, but if you have the opportunity, reach out and talk to some people from the middle east or with family in the middle east. You'd be surprised how wrong the stereotype that we are given about people from the middle east is. You'll find that there is a very big segment of the people that wants to live in peace and is tolerant of other religions and sects. Right now, they are afraid to do anything about it (although things are fortunately changing in Iraq) and everytime people talk about how we need to leave Iraq and leave soon, those people wanting change become more and more reluctant to help bring about change because they fear we are going to abandon them. Our country unfortunately has a track record of encouraging people to stick their necks out and then we abandon them.

 

We can bring stability and prosperity to the middle east. Of course if you have the attitude that we can't, that we'll lose, then we won't bring any change.

 

I agree with a lot of what you have said here. I will be the first to agree that Middle Easterners get a bad wrap from the extremist groups. I have said this myself on numerous occasions.

 

You say that we can bring stability and prosperity to the middle east. That is one VERY tall order and one I admire you for believing in. However, I believe that change MUST come from within. Until the people there decide to make the change and BE the change, then they will live in a society very different from us or in a society in which we have to stand by them with our machine guns and tanks. We can bleed ourselves dry, both monetarily and with the lives of our brave men and women, doing this if we aren't careful.

 

Your perspective is that we must be there in order for change to prevail. If the Iraqi people, and others, are truly ready for that change, it will happen in spite of any efforts we give.

[leatherneck]

I agree with a lot of what you have said here. I will be the first to agree that Middle Easterners get a bad wrap from the extremist groups. I have said this myself on numerous occasions.

 

You say that we can bring stability and prosperity to the middle east. That is one VERY tall order and one I admire you for believing in. However, I believe that change MUST come from within. Until the people there decide to make the change and BE the change, then they will live in a society very different from us or in a society in which we have to stand by them with our machine guns and tanks. We can bleed ourselves dry, both monetarily and with the lives of our brave men and women, doing this if we aren't careful.

 

Your perspective is that we must be there in order for change to prevail. If the Iraqi people, and others, are truly ready for that change, it will happen in spite of any efforts we give.

 

 

Using your logic, should we stay completely out of Darfur, rendering no aid of any type whatsoever, because when the people there are ready to change the things causing genocide, it will happen?

 

There are Iraqis that have decided to make the change and be the change. Contrary to what some people think, there are Iraqis risking their lives to lead the change; to be the change. There are Iraqis that have gotten killed risking their lives to be the change. There is more than a mustard seed of democracy growing in Iraq but it still needs help and water. The people there have lived in fear for years, deathly afraid of the govt., deathly afraid of the military and deathly afraid of voicing their opinion or getting involved. You just don't get that to change by flipping a light switch.

 

Your dang tootin its a TALL order. Which is why it takes a country as great as ours to help make it happen; which is why it has been so costly in lives and dollars; and which is why some people have abandoned support of the war and want to abandon the Iraqi people now that they've had a taste of Democracy and return them to a life of fear and a govt ran by fanatics. But not me. I believe we can be successful if we stick to the plan and I believe we can be successful more quickly if we quit all the talk about pulling out and abandoning Iraq. I guess its back to the attitude thing I was talking about earlier.

[sportsfan41]

So atleast every tiime I type something it's a jokevn;fszdhg;osng;fdjgstr;knb xjvc;k

[H]

Using your logic, should we stay completely out of Darfur, rendering no aid of any type whatsoever, because when the people there are ready to change the things causing genocide, it will happen?

 

There are Iraqis that have decided to make the change and be the change. Contrary to what some people think, there are Iraqis risking their lives to lead the change; to be the change. There are Iraqis that have gotten killed risking their lives to be the change. There is more than a mustard seed of democracy growing in Iraq but it still needs help and water. The people there have lived in fear for years, deathly afraid of the govt., deathly afraid of the military and deathly afraid of voicing their opinion or getting involved. You just don't get that to change by flipping a light switch.

 

Your dang tootin its a TALL order. Which is why it takes a country as great as ours to help make it happen; which is why it has been so costly in lives and dollars; and which is why some people have abandoned support of the war and want to abandon the Iraqi people now that they've had a taste of Democracy and return them to a life of fear and a govt ran by fanatics. But not me. I believe we can be successful if we stick to the plan and I believe we can be successful more quickly if we quit all the talk about pulling out and abandoning Iraq. I guess its back to the attitude thing I was talking about earlier.

 

 

Five years into this fiasco, and I'm continually amazed there are still conservative Republicans advocating nation building. Rising out of the mire of this "attitude is everything" and "we can because we must" type of thinking, I believe that (thankfully) the pragmatists are slowly gaining intellectual traction within the GOP.

 

Read David Broder's column from this morning:

 

Lugar's challenge on Iraq

 

Indiana Republican Senator Dick Lugar layed out five observation-based premises concerning the situation in Iraq and then challenged General Petreaus to articulate "a definable political strategy that recognizes the time limitations that we face and seeks a realistic outcome designed to protect American vital interests." The General couldn't do it.

 

This is a framework of the critical thinking we need going forward in Iraq--not the rah rah pie-in-the-sky idealism that suggests anything is possible given unlimited blood, treasure, and patience.

[gchs_uk9]

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What is Isreal?

 

Truthfully? The biggest problem America could ever have. Too much obligation to keep Israel "pro-America" for the last half-century have turned an entire region completely against the United States.

[leatherneck]

Five years into this fiasco, and I'm continually amazed there are still conservative Republicans advocating nation building. Rising out of the mire of this "attitude is everything" and "we can because we must" type of thinking, I believe that (thankfully) the pragmatists are slowly gaining intellectual traction within the GOP.

 

Read David Broder's column from this morning:

 

Lugar's challenge on Iraq

 

Indiana Republican Senator Dick Lugar layed out five observation-based premises concerning the situation in Iraq and then challenged General Petreaus to articulate "a definable political strategy that recognizes the time limitations that we face and seeks a realistic outcome designed to protect American vital interests." The General couldn't do it.

 

This is a framework of the critical thinking we need going forward in Iraq--not the rah rah pie-in-the-sky idealism that suggests anything is possible given unlimited blood, treasure, and patience.

 

Based on your past posts and line of thinking, I'm not the least bit surprised that you are amazed.