June 5, 200719 yr How many times have we seen closers just lose it for some unknown reason? Dan Kolb, Danny Graves, Chris reitsma I just don't think you trade someone like Dunn to someone in your own league much less your own division I'll give some credence to the "intra division" aspect.
June 5, 200719 yr I haven't read all of this but IMO you tidy up the bullpen, long and short, before you lose a player like Dunn for a closer. Sounds silly to me to trade 40 and 100 for someone that only gets to play once a week, irregardless (for you cshs;) ) of how good he is... Once per week? If you "tidy up" the bullpen by moving Weathers to the setup role, doesn't that automatically create more save chances?
June 5, 200719 yr I agree that a Lidge for Dunn straight up deal is a bad one. That has not been proposed on here.
June 5, 200719 yr Wow, 5 pages of minutiae. Here is my take: 1) Krivsky will NOT trade Dunn within the Central. Maybe not within the NL, but most assuredly not within the Central. It already smells like another O'Neill deal, let's not remind the moronic casual fans about it 18 times a year. 2) Houston doesn't fit for Dunn right now. The only option would be Dunn at first and Berkman in RF, but from a defense stand-point (with Dunn, Berkman [in the OF] and Lee, that is shaky) and a salary stand-point (I'd say the Astros are closer to cutting salary than they are to adding it). Don't forget, if Dunn is dealt this year his option for 2008 jumps from $13.5 to $16.5 million. Lot of cake for Lee and Dunn. 3) Lidge is still a Top 5 closer in the NL. Saito has been pitching in this hemisphere for about 2 months, and is hurt, so the jury is out. Torres is a bum. Wickman = Weathers. Lidge has great stuff -- that is undeniable. A change of scenery WILL do him good. 4) Hopper is already 29, so Mr. Saint saying in two years that outfield will be young is preposterous. He is a punch-and-judy hitter on a good stretch. That is all. If he is ever more than the 4th outfielder than they stink. I think we've seen that defensively, he isn't an everyday centerfielder. However, what his play has done, has make Freel exceptionally tradable. Same type kid. Hopper was a second-baseman, so really, they are identical. However, Hopper is cheaper. I'd think Freel is gone either by Aug. 1 or after the year. 5) I still don't think the Reds will trade Dunn, and they envision Dunn, Hamilton, and Bruce as their starting OF in 2009. You need a bopper in GABP, and he is it. I know UKMF will shudder at this, but there really is very little sense in trading the 27 year old and keeping the 37 year old. Illogical. 6) Before we canonize Hamilton, let's hold off just a while. I know it is a great story, and we all wish him the best, but to bank on him long-term and give away the known commodity would be absurd. 7) Dunn to an AL team (Yankees just lost Giambi, right, and have a short porch in RF) makes a lot more sense, but I'm positive that the deal will have a right-handed hitting outfielder and a pitching prospect in the deal (if it happens). 8) While outfielders are far easier to find than pitching prospects (starting or in the bully), the list of guys that have accumulated 300 homers at age 29 or earlier is a short one (maybe 10 of all time). While his style has caused him to lose favor with the zombies here in Cincy, there is a reason that everyone (including his biggest critics) speaks frequently of all of his trade value. The list of guys you can pencil in for 40 bombs and producing 150 runs is a short one. Not to mention, unlike many others, he does get on base at about a .375 clip and have an OBPS conisistenly over .900. Not a world-beater, but not growing on trees either. 9) His lack of ability (to this point) to hit with RISP is a huge problem. Is it enough to cut bait...not my / our call. Should it get better? One would think, even if by accident. I'm not making excuses, because it is what it is and it "ain't" good, but hitting him 2nd and not 5th / 6th makes much more sense to me. At the 2-hole he is going to get more fastballs and less nibbling, at 5 / 6, if you nibble and he doesn't chase, you get Ross or Gonzo or Castro or some other weak-link. At 2 you challenge him so you don't get Junior or BP or Hamilton with Dunner aboard. 10) If he gets traded, I can nearly assure you that 5 years from now this board will have a thread asking why on Earth we ever gave up on a 27 year old outfielder with 212 career home runs. I promise you. 11) Bang on strikeouts all you'd like, but I'd have preferred Junior striking out in the 10th the other day to the end result we got. Maybe it's just me.
June 5, 200719 yr Author Weathers is a good set-up man but not closer. Teams must have a closer that the other team is afraid of and can strikeout someone with people on base. Every time Weathers comes into a close the other team believes they have a good shot. Perfect example is when Narron brought Weathers in Sunday with bases loaded and no outs. How many Reds fans had faith that weathers could get ud out of that situation. He pitches to contact instead of strikeouts.
June 5, 200719 yr That has not been proposed on here. I proposed it, so please let me go back and retrieve the laundry list of "proposals" in the BGP WE SHOULD TRADE DUNN saga. Same stuff, different month.
June 5, 200719 yr This would not be a smart deal for different reasons...... 1. Smaller market teams do not and should not invest large amounts of money in their bullpen. A good bullpen can be built cheap, and it is a reflection of the front office. 2. Albert Pujols is the only player that Adam Dunn should be traded for with in the division. Don't make other central teams better. 3. Good teams don't trade a guy who is projected to hit 600+ homeruns as he is entering his prime, for a guy who couldn't hold onto his job from a journeyman.
June 5, 200719 yr Once per week? If you "tidy up" the bullpen by moving Weathers to the setup role, doesn't that automatically create more save chances? Not a Weathers fan...
June 5, 200719 yr Lidge is not a top 5 closer in the NL, and the asumption is absurd. Really? The only closers that I'd take (again, my opinion) over Lidge: Cordero of Mil. Wagner of NYM (albeit getting old fast). Valverde of Ariz. Hoffman of SD. Wheeler is the closer because they thought Lidge, mentally, needed a break. I don't think anyone, including Drayton McClane or ScrapIron, could look you in the eye and tell you that they think Wheeler is a better pitcher. So call it absurd if you'd like, but it is hard to disagree with when you look at actual pitchers and not just the role he has been into in Houston.
June 5, 200719 yr How do you get old fast when you are the healthiest you've been in 10 years, and producing at a high rate? That just didn't make any sense. Better closers in NL are: Billy Wagner Trevor Hoffman Francisco Cordero Takashi Saito Brian Fuentes Jason Isringhausen Dan Wheeler Why trade for Lidge when there are the Dan Wheelers of the world out there? Build your bullpen dirt cheap and be efficient at it. This doesn't add up in the end......If the Astros were looking to trade Lidge, he would surely be closing to inflate his value.
June 5, 200719 yr Dear Bluegrass Preps, Lidge for Dunn would be a great deal. Sincerely, Gas Cans, Bored Firefighters, and non-save opportunities
June 5, 200719 yr 12-15 million per season over 5-7 years. I don't mind moving Dunn. I just don't think Lidge is the guy you want in return... Ok, got it. I'm not sure he's available anyhow..and you don't believe he is. I'm just not sure how much more you could get in return as far as bullpen help goes.
June 5, 200719 yr Build your bullpen dirt cheap and be efficient at it. . How has this worked out for the Redlegs?
June 5, 200719 yr Really? The only closers that I'd take (again, my opinion) over Lidge: Cordero of Mil. Wagner of NYM (albeit getting old fast). Valverde of Ariz. Hoffman of SD. Wheeler is the closer because they thought Lidge, mentally, needed a break. I don't think anyone, including Drayton McClane or ScrapIron, could look you in the eye and tell you that they think Wheeler is a better pitcher. So call it absurd if you'd like, but it is hard to disagree with when you look at actual pitchers and not just the role he has been into in Houston. Soriano for the Braves is somewhat of a closer. He has great stuff. Wickman is dwindling these days!
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