June 5, 200719 yr Thanks for asking. A. If the casual fans in this market are going to continue to unfairly paint him as the problem and a villain, than trade him. No one deserves that, especially when it, in essence, isn't deserved. He didn't set the market for big hitters, he just lives during it. Not his fault. So.... B. If you are going to trade him, send him to the AL for a group that looks like this: .....1. A right-handed hitting outfielder on the verge of the majors with some pop. .....2. A starting pitcher in AA that has a high ceiling. .....3. A solid catching prospect at or above the AA level. ....aka, similar to what the Brewers did in sending Sexson to AZ or Lee to TX. Same story. Or.... C. Sign him long-term and market him to the area so that people understand what he DOES do far outweighs what he DOESN'T do. This town has gone from a "great baseball town" to "we haven't won in decades and the fan base is casual at best about baseball." They need an education. You have fans here that freaking think Freel and Hopper are okay substitutes for Dunn. I mean I can't make this stuff up. I'm okay with the first option (although this town will regret it), but obviously I'd prefer option C. I agree w/ all of this except I'm in the B camp if they can get that. The big differnece between you and I on Dunn is you think he's getting ready to reach his ceiling and I think he's already been there.
June 5, 200719 yr You posted his stats, in situational hitting and comparison. I commented on his categories, in which of those stats he leads....There are plenty of spots in the Reds batting order, which are underachieving and offer little glimmer of hope. I think all would agree, the problem with the Reds is not Dunn, but Pitching, or at least that is my contention, over the last several years. From starting, middle and closing, the one consistent item, is it's extremely inconsistent. Trade/package some of the middle relievers and over-priced flubs, that are currently putting the uniform on. Being in the Major Leagues and being a MLB player, are two distinct differences, which I believe the Reds have more than their share of. Who do you get that makes the team a contender for the middle relievers and overpriced flubs? If the Reds want to contend very soon (and I think that's big Bob's goal) then they are going to have to address their #1 problem. In order to address it, they are going to have to give up quality. Who besides Dunn fits that category? Unless you think free agency is the solution, what other choices do you have?
June 5, 200719 yr I think Freel, plays extremely hard in all he does, I'll give him that and I enjoy watching players, who have passion for the game. With that said, he's at best a .270 hitter and his lifetime HR totals are 21 and RBI's, what barely over 100....Sounds like a normal Dunn year, but he gets criticized. Let's look at each position, offensively and see where the problem lies....Anyone care to start. Point the blame, where it needed pointing....Pitching. Some says he could carry the team, others say he can't. Offensively, they make milquetoast leftys routinely look like Steve Carlton. Those are generally the games when Dunn Ks 3-4 times. That's a starting point.
June 5, 200719 yr Who do you get that makes the team a contender for the middle relievers and overpriced flubs? If the Reds want to contend very soon (and I think that's big Bob's goal) then they are going to have to address their #1 problem. In order to address it, they are going to have to give up quality. Who besides Dunn fits that category? Unless you think free agency is the solution, what other choices do you have? I could throw out names but unless quality starting pitching is available, it's a mute point. I've never understood the concept, of trading production in one area, for production in another. Weaking the batting lineup, to make the pitching stronger, still leaves a void. Yes, free-agency or like I've stated many, many times....Package these relievers and some starters, see if anyone wants them. The Reds have acquired everyone elses cast offs. I remember many thought Cormier, was the answer, along with other relievers acquired but that hasn't worked, for the most part.
June 5, 200719 yr Offensively, they make milquetoast leftys routinely look like Steve Carlton. Those are generally the games when Dunn Ks 3-4 times. That's a starting point.Lefty's in the big show, are supposed to get LH hitters out. A lineup without Dunn, means less production offensively. No current player, can pick up the slack. If a Minor League player existed, which could carry the load, I believe he would be up. Let's face it, this organization reminds me of one, who is more financially accountable, than winning conscious. When they start playing MLB games, with one player, Dunn can then be blamed for complete failure....until then, let all be accountable.
June 5, 200719 yr I could throw out names but unless quality starting pitching is available, it's a mute point. I've never understood the concept, of trading production in one area, for production in another. Weaking the batting lineup, to make the pitching stronger, still leaves a void. Yes, free-agency or like I've stated many, many times....Package these relievers and some starters, see if anyone wants them. The Reds have acquired everyone elses cast offs. I remember many thought Cormier, was the answer, along with other relievers acquired but that hasn't worked, for the most part. If you give up value in an area that year in and year out is easier to fill a void I have no problem w/ it at all. I think they can find an outfieder in the off season preferably right handed that can put up .275 20 75 or there abouts. The biggest void would be OBP. Said outfielder would also not cost nearly as much.
June 5, 200719 yr How much cash will we have with freed up contracts for next season? $10M for Milton? Cormer's $2M? What do you do with that $12M per year?
June 5, 200719 yr How much cash will we have with freed up contracts for next season? $10M for Milton? Cormer's $2M? What do you do with that $12M per year? Bite the bullet and pay a top-shelf closer and get a reliable middle reliever.
June 5, 200719 yr Here's a list of possible free agents next year. Not exactly a lot of guys out there pitching wise that are going to make a huge difference. \ Catchers Jorge Posada (36) Ivan Rodriguez (36) - $13MM club option for '08 Paul Lo Duca (36) Michael Barrett (31) Jason Kendall (34) First basemen Adam Dunn (28) - $13MM club option for '08 Second basemen Jeff Kent (40) - $9MM club option vests with 550 PAs this year Marcus Giles (30) - $4MM club option for '08 Luis Castillo (32) Tadahito Iguchi (33) Shortstops Omar Vizquel (41) David Eckstein (33) Juan Uribe (29) - $5MM club option for '08 Cesar Izturis (28) - $5.45MM club option for '08 Third basemen Alex Rodriguez (32) Mike Lowell (34) Mike Lamb (32) Pedro Feliz (33) Left fielders Eric Byrnes (32) Adam Dunn (28) - $13MM club option for '08 Geoff Jenkins (33) - $9MM club option for '08 Luis Gonzalez (40) Barry Bonds (43) Brad Wilkerson (31) Center fielders Ichiro Suzuki (34) Andruw Jones (31) Torii Hunter (32) Eric Byrnes (32) Corey Patterson (28) Milton Bradley (30) Aaron Rowand (30) Mike Cameron (35) Kenny Lofton (41) Right fielders Jermaine Dye (34) Bobby Abreu (34) - $16MM club option for '08 Ichiro Suzuki (34) Milton Bradley (30) Geoff Jenkins (33) - $9MM club option for '08 Trot Nixon (34) Jose Guillen (32) - $9MM club option for '08 Shawn Green (35) - $10MM club option for '08 Eric Hinske (30) DHs Shea Hillenbrand (32) Mike Piazza (39) Barry Bonds (43) Mike Sweeney (34) Starting pitchers Carlos Zambrano (27) Curt Schilling (41) Jason Jennings (29) Freddy Garcia (32) Kenny Rogers (43) Mark Buehrle (29) Jon Lieber (38) Bartolo Colon (35) Joe Kennedy (29) Tomo Ohka (32) John Thomson (34) Kip Wells (31) Wade Miller (31) Livan Hernandez (33)* Randy Wolf (31) - $9MM club option for '08 Paul Byrd (37) - $8MM club option for '08 Jeff Weaver (31) Tom Glavine (42) - $9MM player option for '08 Kris Benson (33) - $7.5MM club option for '08 Jaret Wright (32) David Wells (45) Eric Milton (32) Kyle Lohse (29) Matt Clement (33) Rodrigo Lopez (32) Josh Fogg (31) Byung-Hyun Kim (29) Odalis Perez (31) - $9MM club option for '08 Brett Tomko (35) - $4.5MM mutual option for '08 Closers Mariano Rivera (38) Jason Isringhausen (35) - $8MM club option for '08 Bob Wickman (39) Francisco Cordero (33) Armando Benitez (35) Eric Gagne (32) Todd Jones (40) Jorge Julio (29) Middle relievers Scott Linebrink (31) Kerry Wood (31)
June 5, 200719 yr How much cash will we have with freed up contracts for next season? $10M for Milton? Cormer's $2M? What do you do with that $12M per year? I spend it on pitching, beit 1 quality starter, with a deferred salary or combination of closer and middle relievers (2). Here's a list of possible free agents next year. Not exactly a lot of guys out there pitching wise that are going to make a huge difference. \ Starting pitchers Carlos Zambrano (27) Freddy Garcia (32) Mark Buehrle (29) Bartolo Colon (35) Jeff Weaver (31) Tom Glavine (42) - $9MM player option for '08 Closers Bob Wickman (39) Todd Jones (40) Here my choices, out of these options.
June 5, 200719 yr I spend it on pitching, beit 1 quality starter, with a deferred salary or combination of closer and middle relievers (2). Here my choices, out of these options. Starting pitchers Carlos Zambrano (27) Freddy Garcia (32) Mark Buehrle (29) Bartolo Colon (35) Jeff Weaver (31) Tom Glavine (42) - $9MM player option for '08 Closers Bob Wickman (39) Todd Jones (40) Jeff Weaver????
June 5, 200719 yr Here's a list of possible free agents next year. Not exactly a lot of guys out there pitching wise that are going to make a huge difference. \ Catchers Michael Barrett (31) First basemen Adam Dunn (28) - $13MM club option for '08 Shortstops Cesar Izturis (28) - $5.45MM club option for '08 Left fielders Adam Dunn (28) - $13MM club option for '08 Center fielders Andruw Jones (31) Aaron Rowand (30) Starting pitchers Jason Jennings (29) Freddy Garcia (32) Mark Buehrle (29) Randy Wolf (31) Jeff Weaver (31) Tom Glavine (42) Odalis Perez (31) Closers Francisco Cordero (33) Todd Jones (40) Middle relievers Scott Linebrink (31) I would show interested in those guys...
June 5, 200719 yr When (if ever) has a closer been traded for a guy who's going to hit 40 HRs every year? There is a reason run manufacturing guys cost money. The "Dunn isn't clutch" was once proved false on this board. A closer and a starter maybe, but not a closer straight up.
June 5, 200719 yr When (if ever) has a closer been traded for a guy who's going to hit 40 HRs every year? There is a reason run manufacturing guys cost money. The "Dunn isn't clutch" was once proved false on this board. A closer and a starter maybe, but not a closer straight up. Thats why I said Dunn, Milton, and Lohse maybe for Lidge and Wandy Rodriguez or Chad Qualls. Then the rotation would be Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Livingston, and "The great one" Bailey. But, who knows if the Astros are still interrested in Dunn, they have Pence, Lee, and Scott/Burk, who is to say they want Dunn to be in the outfield, becuase we already know they don't want him to play first, Berkman is there.
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