I am saying it was an odd game that led to Harang being in there.

So ... "an odd game" justified doing what he did with Harang? That's part of his job, to manage the game and the pitching staff. For Dusty, it's always been an area in which he isn't very strong, and that's putting it mildly.

 

I think if we look at stats over the time Dusty has been the manager in Cincinnati that the number of games where a starter has thrown more than 120 pitches are very few. If we look at 110+ pitch games, I would guess the Reds starters are on the low end in the league during Dusty's time as manager. The knock on Dusty is over working pitchers and it hasn't happened in Cincinnati.

You can tell the difference pre-Jocketty and post-Jocketty, too.

I love the trade. I'm tired of waiting for 2 or 3 years down the road. I want to win next season.

No, we need your answer now so we knew where you stood on the trade when July rolls around. Don't want anybody complaining either way on the trade in July if they can't tell us how they feel about it right now.

 

I tend to always trust managers and GM's. I don't have a problem with the move. They only gave up one guy that has proven he can have some success at the MLB level. Potential means nothing to me.

Who is the closer for next year?

Who is the closer for next year?

 

CoCo will be back IMO.

I am saying it was an odd game that led to Harang being in there.

 

I think if we look at stats over the time Dusty has been the manager in Cincinnati that the number of games where a starter has thrown more than 120 pitches are very few. If we look at 110+ pitch games, I would guess the Reds starters are on the low end in the league during Dusty's time as manager. The knock on Dusty is over working pitchers and it hasn't happened in Cincinnati.

 

In 2008, Reds starters topped 120 pitches five times. They topped 100 pitches 79 times, including a team-high 21 times by Volquez. Of course, Volquez developed arm troubles the following year. 122 pitches was the game max by Harang.

 

In 2009, the number of 120+ pitch games was down to three. They topped 100 pitches 92 times. Harang threw 123 in a game. He also has developed arm trouble.

 

In 2010, pitchers topped 120 pitches six times by four different pitchers. They topped 100 pitches 80 times. 124 pitches by Cueto was the max.

 

In 2007 (the year before Dusty), Harang and Arroyo topped 120 pitches eight times, but the total of 100 pitch games was just 68 games.

 

By Comparison, in Dusty's last year in Chicago in 2006, Cubs pitchers topped 120 pitches nine times, eight by Zambrano.

 

After Dusty's exit, Lou Piniella in 2007, Cubs pitchers topped 100 pitches 67 times and 120 pitches six times.

 

Are any of these as bad as what he did in 2003 with the Cubs? Nowehere close.

 

Dusty allowed pitchers to top 120 pitches 29 times. Kerry Wood topped 120 pitches 13 times with a max of 141. Followed by Prior (9 times), Zambrano (6), and Matt Clement (1).

 

So how does Dusty compare to other NL managers?

 

Digest how you see fit

 

 

2010 Numbers

 

Times a Pitcher Threw 100-119 Pitches

93 - Brewers

93 - Astros

89 - Giants

89 - Diamondbacks

80 - REDS

79 - Phillies

72 - Padres

69 - Dodgers

67- Cubs

64 - Marlins

63 - Cardinals

63 - Mets

61 - Braves

59 - Rockies

39 - Nationals

28 - Pirates

 

Times a Pitcher threw more than 120 pitches

12 - Phillies

7 - Cubs

7 - Giants

6 - REDS

6 - Mets

5 - Cardinals

4 - Astros

3 - Brewers

3 - Dodgers

2 - Marlins

2 - Padres

1 - Nationals

1 - Rockies

1 - Diamondbacks

0 - Pirates

0 - Braves

 

 

Max Pitches

133 - Giants

132 - Cardinals

130 - Phillies

128 - Cubs

126 - Astros

126 - Mets

125 - Marlins

125 - Dodgers

124 - REDS

123 - Padres

123 - Nationals

123 - Brewers

120 - Rockies

120 - Diamondbacks

119 - Braves

115 - Pirates

Sorry, I haven't commented until now. Busy weekend.

 

Anyways, I loved the deal. Do I view Latos as an ace? Not quite, at least not yet. He's easily their #1 or #2 though, so it adds a legit top of the rotation guy who's young and under team control for the next 4 years. I have no issues with anything they gave up. Volquez had no role on the 2012 Reds. Grandal was never going to suit up for the Reds. They essentially traded Alonso, a positionless player, and an unproven reliever for one of the best young arms in the game. I can roll with that. Hoping Walt brings Coco back in the fold (at a lower price tag), and gets a solid bat (Kubel, Ross, Ludwick) to platoon in LF with Heisey.

 

I know Walt said he isn't done dealing, so I'm going to assume Homer will not be on the Opening Day roster.

There are probably only 3 or 4 teams in baseball that would even consider trading a pitcher like Latos. It needed to be a team that doesn't think they can win next year who needs a lot of pieces to rebuild. It was a good match up between team interests.

 

I agree with this assessment.

Love it.

Love it.

 

Agreed!

 

Nice research Scribe!

In 2008, Reds starters topped 120 pitches five times. They topped 100 pitches 79 times, including a team-high 21 times by Volquez. Of course, Volquez developed arm troubles the following year. 122 pitches was the game max by Harang.

 

In 2009, the number of 120+ pitch games was down to three. They topped 100 pitches 92 times. Harang threw 123 in a game. He also has developed arm trouble.

 

In 2010, pitchers topped 120 pitches six times by four different pitchers. They topped 100 pitches 80 times. 124 pitches by Cueto was the max.

 

In 2007 (the year before Dusty), Harang and Arroyo topped 120 pitches eight times, but the total of 100 pitch games was just 68 games.

 

By Comparison, in Dusty's last year in Chicago in 2006, Cubs pitchers topped 120 pitches nine times, eight by Zambrano.

 

After Dusty's exit, Lou Piniella in 2007, Cubs pitchers topped 100 pitches 67 times and 120 pitches six times.

 

Are any of these as bad as what he did in 2003 with the Cubs? Nowehere close.

 

Dusty allowed pitchers to top 120 pitches 29 times. Kerry Wood topped 120 pitches 13 times with a max of 141. Followed by Prior (9 times), Zambrano (6), and Matt Clement (1).

 

So how does Dusty compare to other NL managers?

 

Digest how you see fit

 

 

2010 Numbers

 

Times a Pitcher Threw 100-119 Pitches

93 - Brewers

93 - Astros

89 - Giants

89 - Diamondbacks

80 - REDS

79 - Phillies

72 - Padres

69 - Dodgers

67- Cubs

64 - Marlins

63 - Cardinals

63 - Mets

61 - Braves

59 - Rockies

39 - Nationals

28 - Pirates

 

Times a Pitcher threw more than 120 pitches

12 - Phillies

7 - Cubs

7 - Giants

6 - REDS

6 - Mets

5 - Cardinals

4 - Astros

3 - Brewers

3 - Dodgers

2 - Marlins

2 - Padres

1 - Nationals

1 - Rockies

1 - Diamondbacks

0 - Pirates

0 - Braves

 

 

Max Pitches

133 - Giants

132 - Cardinals

130 - Phillies

128 - Cubs

126 - Astros

126 - Mets

125 - Marlins

125 - Dodgers

124 - REDS

123 - Padres

123 - Nationals

123 - Brewers

120 - Rockies

120 - Diamondbacks

119 - Braves

115 - Pirates

 

Well done Scribe!! After looking at those numbers, does anyone have a problem with Dusty overworking pitchers? Nothing there looks like a problem to me. It all goes back to the 2003 season and I bet Dusty himself would tell you he screwed up that year.

Love the trade. I'd rather them go all in with BP and Votto rather than trading one or both of them now

Let's be honest here. The Reds traded away two positions that are a dime a dozen when it comes to finding replacements. There are always good first basemen and serviceable catchers available to every team when they are needed. While I think Grandal will prove to be the best player of the bunch, it's not like the Reds traded away the next star shortstop or third basemen i.e. a position of need after 2012.

 

Contrary to your belief is is not nearly as easy as you think to find good replacements at those positions. What do you call serviceable catchers? If the Reds felt that way they wouldn't be drafting as many as they have. Go back and look at recent drafts and count the number of catchers that they have drafted. I think you will be shocked by the number. There are maybe a half dozen what I would call good catchers in the league and half of those are named Molina.

Contrary to your belief is is not nearly as easy as you think to find good replacements at those positions. What do you call serviceable catchers? If the Reds felt that way they wouldn't be drafting as many as they have. Go back and look at recent drafts and count the number of catchers that they have drafted. I think you will be shocked by the number. There are maybe a half dozen what I would call good catchers in the league and half of those are named Molina.

 

 

So do you think Grandal will be a good catcher?

Well done Scribe!! After looking at those numbers, does anyone have a problem with Dusty overworking pitchers? Nothing there looks like a problem to me. It all goes back to the 2003 season and I bet Dusty himself would tell you he screwed up that year.

 

I don't like his handling of the pitching staff as a whole. I think he has horrible instincts for when to change pitchers and more than once he has left the bullpen short in extra-innings. The numbers do show that Volquez had a very heavy workload prior to his arm problems.