Is this the next line for Kobe haters?

[CatsCatsCats]

Yeah...because they were so bad with him this season prior to the injury.

 

With Nelson, they were 2-0 vs. LA. With a rusty Nelson, they lost 4 of 5.

 

This Magic team will never win a title with backcourt combos of Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Mickael Pietrus and JJ Redick. They're all role players. Pietrus is a solid bench guy. Nelson is the only guard they have that can consistently play at a high level.

 

Orlando got overhyped. They finally woke up and finished off a tired and undermanned Celtics team that they should have beat in 5 or 6. Then, they benefitted from a favorable matchup against a Cleveland team that absolutely refused to try anything different through 6 games.

 

Not to take anything away from the Magic...they finally started playing the way they should for about 8 games and they hit some clutch shots. But, against LA, they were matched up against a team that could not only match them across the board, but actually had advantages, the Lakers had depth, and they couldn't rely on average (at best) coaching to help them out because Phil is arguably the best ever.

 

The Magic's best offensive player is Turkoglu. Better than Lewis, Howard or Nelson. When Nelson is in the game that limits what Turkoglu can do, because Nelson is not a spot up shooter. With Nelson the Magic offensively become what the Suns used to be, minus the fact that Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP and HOF, and Nelson is lucky to have been selected an All-Star. The Magic team from earlier in the season does not beat the depleted Celtics or the Cavs. The Bobcats also had a 2-0 record against the Lakers, if i'm not mistaken, but I don't see them winning the title any time this century.

[Getslow]

I am not a Kobe hater but answer this question. If Kobe and LeBron switched teams would Kobe win a championship with the Cavs? And if Lebron was a Laker with the same team Kobe had would he win?

 

Hard to say. But I do believe that if the Cavs had Pau Gasol and the Lakers had Varejao or Illgauskas, we'd be looking at a Cavs championship right now. I thought through that entire conference final that the Cavs just had nothing to stop Howard. Gasol could do that. But that's just basketball, matchups are key.

[5wide]

I wouldn't say that LA is a better defensive team that Cleveland. I think that Odom is able to matchup with Lewis, and the Lakers have some size on the wings. Delonte West and Varajao's inability to guard Lewis and Turkoglu/Pietrus cost the Cavs. Against standard lineups the Cavs can guard with the best of them.

 

As for Nelson, we will see. I think the Cavs and Celtics are the 1 and 2 seeds again, and this time face off in the ECF.

 

You can't beat LA if you can't play physical with them. That's a big reason why Orlando couldn't do it. Other reasons would be the fact that LA was just better and they had a better coach. But, a less talented team that plays the right style can beat the Lakers, IMO. Boston is an example...I'd take LA's talent level, but Boston played the right style to beat them.

 

Cleveland should have done some things different. That's the difference in a great coach and one that was in over his head.

 

Phil mixed up his looks against Howard...single coverage, quick doubles, delayed doubles, etc. He kept him off-balance and largely contained on the offensive end in the finals. Cleveland played the same defense all series and Howard destroyed them.

 

Against the combo of Lewis and Turkoglu, Cleveland couldn't guard them both. But, they could have guarded one of them with Lebron. Instead, Mike Brown chose to give those guys a freebie for 6 games and they killed him.

 

And, finally, he stuck his best defender on one of Orlando's two worst players, thinking Lebron could beat Orlando himself as long as he was "rested" for offense.

 

Orlando was a bad matchup for the Cavs, but Cleveland did absolutely nothing to counter it. A better coach could have worked on off-setting the problems and given the Cavs a chance to win that series. Instead, Cleveland played 6 straight games as if they were in denial that a team could be a matchup problem for them.

 

Mike Brown put on one of the worst coaching displays in league history during the ECF. It was much worse than any criticism people will have of SVG for the finals.

[CatsCatsCats]

Hard to say. But I do believe that if the Cavs had Pau Gasol and the Lakers had Varejao or Illgauskas, we'd be looking at a Cavs championship right now. I thought through that entire conference final that the Cavs just had nothing to stop Howard. Gasol could do that. But that's just basketball, matchups are key.

 

I'll agree. But, overall Lewis and Turkoglu beat the Cavs. Howard was big, but the Laker proved that even when he has alot of points, rebounds, and assist that the Magic are still beatable.

[5wide]

The Magic's best offensive player is Turkoglu. Better than Lewis, Howard or Nelson. When Nelson is in the game that limits what Turkoglu can do, because Nelson is not a spot up shooter. With Nelson the Magic offensively become what the Suns used to be, minus the fact that Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP and HOF, and Nelson is lucky to have been selected an All-Star. The Magic team from earlier in the season does not beat the depleted Celtics or the Cavs. The Bobcats also had a 2-0 record against the Lakers, if i'm not mistaken, but I don't see them winning the title any time this century.

 

I don't see Orlando winning a title either, but they're still a better team with a healthy Jameer Nelson.

 

With Nelson - 36-11 (.766)

Without Nelson - 23-12 (.657)

 

The 11th loss with Nelson was the game he was injured in.

 

I'm done arguing about it because the numbers don't support your argument, nor have I heard anyone but you make such a claim.

[5wide]

Hard to say. But I do believe that if the Cavs had Pau Gasol and the Lakers had Varejao or Illgauskas, we'd be looking at a Cavs championship right now. I thought through that entire conference final that the Cavs just had nothing to stop Howard. Gasol could do that. But that's just basketball, matchups are key.

 

It helps to have a coach who formulates a defensive game plan to help you out and keep the guy off-balance rather than allow him to get and stay comfortable for six games.

 

Mix it up with Howard. Don't let him dunk. Force him to shoot instead...whether it's the jump hook (his lone offensive move) or FT's. Cleveland had 30 fouls to expend on Howard. They could have done a much better job on him.

 

They could have put Lebron on Turkoglu and severely limited his impact.

 

But, instead they did nothing and got owned.

[ColonelCrazy]

Isn't there something to be said to all the people who said he couldn't do it without Shaq?

 

Kobe can't win without a big man. But then again, nobody in the NBA can.

 

Make no mistake, this Lakers' team is Kobe's team. But Pau Gasol & Lamar Odom are very, very good NBA players.

[CatsCatsCats]

I don't see Orlando winning a title either, but they're still a better team with a healthy Jameer Nelson.

 

With Nelson - 36-11 (.766)

Without Nelson - 23-12 (.657)

 

The 11th loss with Nelson was the game he was injured in.

 

I'm done arguing about it because the numbers don't support your argument, nor have I heard anyone but you make such a claim.

 

The numbers are garbage. Ok, after Nelson went down, they went and got Alston. Like you said you cannot just throw someone into a line-up and run with it. It takes time. It took an adjustment period, and also Turkoglu started showing parts of his game that we'd never seen him do before. I think winning the Eastern Conference supports my argument. Sure the Celtics were hurt and the Cavs couldnt' match up but those are good teams. If somehow they would have been better with a healthy Nelson, don't you think they might have been the favorite for most of the season until he got hurt?

[5wide]

The numbers are garbage. Ok, after Nelson went down, they went and got Alston. Like you said you cannot just throw someone into a line-up and run with it. It takes time. It took an adjustment period, and also Turkoglu started showing parts of his game that we'd never seen him do before. I think winning the Eastern Conference supports my argument. Sure the Celtics were hurt and the Cavs couldnt' match up but those are good teams. If somehow they would have been better with a healthy Nelson, don't you think they might have been the favorite for most of the season until he got hurt?

 

No.

 

1. Garnett was expect back.

2. Nobody realized how bad the Cavs matched up against Orlando.

3. Nobody had any reason to expect the Magic to suddenly transform into a mentally tough, clutch team for 8 games late in the playoffs, when they'd shown absolutely no sign of that until then.

 

Those three things are independent of Jameer Nelson. And, additionally, his presence would have only added to the Magic's matchup advantages.

 

Then again, you may be right. Had Orlando had Nelson, perhaps Mike Brown would have let Lebron guard Turkoglu since he could have "rested" defending Nelson. Nelson's presence might have forced Mike Brown to make a smart coaching decision. Go figure. You may be on to something with your twisted logic...:idunno:

[CatsCatsCats]

No.

 

1. Garnett was expect back.

2. Nobody realized how bad the Cavs matched up against Orlando.

3. Nobody had any reason to expect the Magic to suddenly transform into a mentally tough, clutch team for 8 games late in the playoffs, when they'd shown absolutely no sign of that until then.

 

Those three things are independent of Jameer Nelson. And, additionally, his presence would have only added to the Magic's matchup advantages.

 

Then again, you may be right. Had Orlando had Nelson, perhaps Mike Brown would have let Lebron guard Turkoglu since he could have "rested" defending Nelson. Nelson's presence might have forced Mike Brown to make a smart coaching decision. Go figure. You may be on to something with your twisted logic...:idunno:

 

That among other things would hurt the Magic. Nelson makes the Magic a better regular season team because of the style they will play, but he does not help them for the playoffs. The Matchups are negated a little bit with Nelson in the game. I think he even hurts how they attack with Howard against the Cavs. Nelson will penetrate, but the Cavs generally defend that best, but in penetration that takes away post up opportunities for Howard and that is how he got his points.

 

I think everyone is missing this. Mainly because they are thinking about the two contrasting styles the Magic have played this season. You see Nelson as an All-Star, which he was, but I see him as the kind of player who will change the identity of the Magic, and it won't work. And this has nothing to do with him at the Finals.