Balk or Legal Play?

[cooperstown]

I don't see how this could happen and not be a balk. According to both OBR and FED rules the pitcher must step first to the bag he is throwing to before the throw occurs. If I'm planning on going to first I don't see how I could continue swinging my non pivot foot around to throw to 2nd (and actually get it going in the direction of 2nd, note that the step can't be somewhere between the two). I guess this is correct in theory but I don't see how it could be physically applied.

 

Agree. It's physically impossible. A pitcher simply wouldn't have the necessary momentum to turn towards first, realize there wasn't a play there, and then continue turning uninterrupted towards second to make a throw. You'd probably break your pivot foot ankle. :lol: And, of course, you also aren't permitted to jump turn and not make a throw to 1B but throw to 2B instead, as you are still considered to be on the rubber in a jump turn move and are obligated to throw to 1B.

[Clyde]

Agree. It's physically impossible. A pitcher simply wouldn't have the necessary momentum to turn towards first, realize there wasn't a play there, and then continue turning uninterrupted towards second to make a throw. You'd probably break your pivot foot ankle. :lol: And, of course, you also aren't permitted to jump turn and not make a throw to 1B but throw to 2B instead, as you are still considered to be on the rubber in a jump turn move and are obligated to throw to 1B.

 

This would not work on the jump move. You can, however, lift your pivot leg straight up without pausing nor moving towards home and then do the turn and throw to 2nd base. This is a legal (and rarely used) move.

 

A note from the Evans manual:

 

A casebook note was added in 1976. It clarified the issue of a pitcher making a complete turn (without hesitating toward first base) and throwing to second when the umpire believed the runner was attempting to advance...see 8.05 End Notes (b).

[wildcat35]

Who said anything about a runner on 3rd?

 

my bad I misread it.............but I still think these moves are against the rules.

[Clyde]

my bad I misread it.............but I still think these moves are against the rules.

 

Are you saying you think they SHOULD be against the rules or are you saying that the rulebook specifically makes them illegal now?

[Under the Lights]

This would not work on the jump move. You can, however, lift your pivot leg straight up without pausing nor moving towards home and then do the turn and throw to 2nd base. This is a legal (and rarely used) move.

 

A note from the Evans manual:

 

A casebook note was added in 1976. It clarified the issue of a pitcher making a complete turn (without hesitating toward first base) and throwing to second when the umpire believed the runner was attempting to advance...see 8.05 End Notes (b).

 

That's one saavy pitcher, that's about all I can say about that.

 

The non-pivot leg straight up and then to 2nd is fairly common among better baseball teams. Where it gets dicey is if it stops at the top of the motion before coming to 2nd.

[VMABaseball06]

If this is not a balk then how does this situation differ from the situation of a runner attempting a walk-off play from first to second and the pitcher not stepping of the rubber with his right foot to make a play?

 

The same reasoning for ruling this play a balk in nearly all levels of baseball should also apply here should it not?

[VMABaseball06]

One other thing to also remember. If a pitcher steps off the back of the rubber, he is no longer by definition a "pitcher" he becomes a fielder. In this case many rules change. A pitcher may not throw to an unoccupied base, a fielder however can.

[VMABaseball06]

OK in this flurry of rules I have potentially revised my statement. It is true, after reading the rule and thinking the situation through this is not a balk. The pitcher (using the definition of pitcher and not fielder), is throwing to third to make a play on a runner attempting to occupy the bag.

 

After taking out a rule book the reasoning for the similar situation and the pitcher throwing to first must be different because, the pitcher, in this situation is not throwing to first to make a play at FIRST BASE.

 

However, in a runner on first runner goes before pitcher commits to home situation, could the pitcher lift his leg and throw to second using the same rule assuming he does not commit a balk with his body or commitment to a previously asserted bag?

[Clyde]

OK in this flurry of rules I have potentially revised my statement. It is true, after reading the rule and thinking the situation through this is not a balk. The pitcher (using the definition of pitcher and not fielder), is throwing to third to make a play on a runner attempting to occupy the bag.

 

After taking out a rule book the reasoning for the similar situation and the pitcher throwing to first must be different because, the pitcher, in this situation is not throwing to first to make a play at FIRST BASE.

 

However, in a runner on first runner goes before pitcher commits to home situation, could the pitcher lift his leg and throw to second using the same rule assuming he does not commit a balk with his body or commitment to a previously asserted bag?

 

To your last question: yes.

[greeny94]

Another great pick off move to get out of a jam. Runner on 3rd base. Most pitchers go from the full wind-up. Start your motion by using your foot to move about and releasing yourself from the rubber. Will almost guarantee the runer on 3rd breaks with your motion. Stepping back with your opposite foot, you have the runner nailed. Friend was taught this in college, and was a pro at this. Success rate was very high.

[Clyde]

Another great pick off move to get out of a jam. Runner on 3rd base. Most pitchers go from the full wind-up. Start your motion by using your foot to move about and releasing yourself from the rubber. Will almost guarantee the runer on 3rd breaks with your motion. Stepping back with your opposite foot, you have the runner nailed. Friend was taught this in college, and was a pro at this. Success rate was very high.

 

What do you mean by "using your foot to move about?"

 

If you're stepping back first with your non-pivot and then stepping off with your pivot that would be a balk.

 

Can you describe your "play" in more detail?

[Under the Lights]

Another great pick off move to get out of a jam. Runner on 3rd base. Most pitchers go from the full wind-up. Start your motion by using your foot to move about and releasing yourself from the rubber. Will almost guarantee the runer on 3rd breaks with your motion. Stepping back with your opposite foot, you have the runner nailed. Friend was taught this in college, and was a pro at this. Success rate was very high.

 

I think he is saying to start your motion by stepping off with your pivot foot. This is still a balk. You cannot simulate a pitch or pitching motion while doing this.

[Clyde]

I think he is saying to start your motion by stepping off with your pivot foot. This is still a balk. You cannot simulate a pitch or pitching motion while doing this.

 

OK. I was having problems following his wording.

[wildcat35]

Are you saying you think they SHOULD be against the rules or are you saying that the rulebook specifically makes them illegal now?

 

 

 

So lets say, we have a runner on first................right handed pitcher. As the pitcher lifts his leg, runner breaks to steal second.............players in the dugout yell "runner".............pitcher hears this, wheels his leg around, and does a normal throw to second as he would if it was a pickoff move, without balking...............only in this situation its to get the runner stealing . are you saying this would be a legal play? I just don't see how it could be.

[Clyde]

So lets say, we have a runner on first................right handed pitcher. As the pitcher lifts his leg, runner breaks to steal second.............players in the dugout yell "runner".............pitcher hears this, wheels his leg around, and does a normal throw to second as he would if it was a pickoff move, without balking...............only in this situation its to get the runner stealing . are you saying this would be a legal play? I just don't see how it could be.

 

It depends on a few things. The pitcher cannot start forward before spinning. His cannot (I don't think) pause when he raises his leg. If those requirements are met, its a legal play.

 

The runner should NOT be running until he is sure the pitcher is going to home. You can't penalize the runner for the pitcher making a legal move just because its not used very often.