On 3/11/2022 at 6:32 PM, MightyOak said:

I saw that proposal in a good article on Vaught’s Views a few weeks ago.  And the those 4 class winners playing for an overall Sweet 16 championship.  We don’t have 700 like sized schools any more.  Time to step into the 21st century with our high school sports. 

I say leave it how it is. My kids play for an A school.  While playing in the all A is cool and everything being the overall winner would mean so much more.  I’m not sure how the boys work out as far as size of teams that have won but as far as the girls the only two teams that actually won a state championship out of the ninth, which is probably one of the most competitive regions, was an A school and a big school. The small schools that are competitive will have their shot at the big prize  although not frequently.  The non competitive small schools won’t ever have a shot regardless of how many classes.  It will completely dilute and ruin the regional tournaments in my opinion.

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Call the first round whatever you want. The 2nd round would still be the Sweet 16. But to not want to improve the tournament because the name “doesn’t sound right” is kind of silly. 

I was being sarcastic. 

But I am not a supporter of changing the tournament. I like it fine just the way it is. And that is coming from a fan and alumnus of a county high school with an enrollment of 200 (and only school in the county). 

On 3/11/2022 at 5:01 PM, Runcible Owl said:

2014 comes to mind (and I'm sure there are others). Cov Cath lost to Holmes in 2 OT at District, then beat them in the Regional final. 

Perhaps the most memorable was the 1979 run by Lafayette, when the Generals lost just one game all year - in the district finals to Henry Clay.

They beat HC in the 11th region finals and won it all in the Sweet 16, finishing with just that one loss.   

No question but what the best team in the state - by far - would have never hit the S16 hardwood had the district runner-ups been eliminated.

30 minutes ago, ColonelMike said:

Perhaps the most memorable was the 1979 run by Lafayette, when the Generals lost just one game all year - in the district finals to Henry Clay.

They beat HC in the 11th region finals and won it all in the Sweet 16, finishing with just that one loss.   

No question but what the best team in the state - by far - would have never hit the S16 hardwood had the district runner-ups been eliminated.

From the way-way-back machine - The Dirk Minniefield era Generals were awesome. Kids from UK would walk to Picadome to watch "The Show." Bought the T-shirt, took the ride.

9 minutes ago, Runcible Owl said:

From the way-way-back machine - The Dirk Minniefield era Generals were awesome. Kids from UK would walk to Picadome to watch "The Show." Bought the T-shirt, took the ride.

Jock Sutherland was a masterful tactician with an insanely talented lineup.   Minniefield showcased his wares at UK, and fellow guard Tony Wilson was a stud at WKU while I was there.  "TWA - Tony Wilson Airlines"  (oops, does anyone else on this board even remember TWA???)

CM

Leave everything the way it is. The district championship still means something. In fact it means a lot when you win one and get to take that district champion trophy home. There are a lot of schools in Ky that aren’t running out of room to put “another district trophy” in the case. The excitement you see when one of the little guys wins one is unmatched and it’s real. At that moment it means everything. This year in particular it meant more to win the district in the 10th because that helped you avoid GRC for one game at least. It is the older crowd that gets more excited this time of year but don’t change things and take away from the kids that recently have had enough taken from them already. 

On 3/11/2022 at 8:56 PM, The Raven said:

It's already odd enough that you can lose once in the postseason and still win a state title.  Losing 2 times in the postseason and still winning a state title would be a little ridiculous.

I have no problem with the district "do over" and we have seen that many great teams have lost in the district final and still won it all.  After that it's win or go home.  Keep it like it is.

This tourney is the best show in the state for high school basketball every single year, other states envy our Sweet 16 and the traditional themes and values, to change the format in any single way would be a tremendous mistake and I would step out and say it’s just not happening.

I love everything about the Sweet 16 as is.

I wish I could record some of the comments I get from HS fans in other states, when they tell me how envious they are of Kentucky's Sweet 16 and our "one-class" system.....   of course, there are lots of folks who favor the "let's hand out as many trophies as possible" class system, but I think a lot of Kentuckians don't even realize how many people across the country wish our system was theirs....

When I was teenager, I was in Boy Scouts.   I was a pretty fair chess player at the time, and played on my junior high chess team at Pleasure Ridge Park HS (I was in 8th grade at the time).   I wanted to organize a chess tournament in our troop, because there were a number of guys who played.    But I faced a dilemma:   What to do with "Sam"?   "Sam" was one of the oldest Scouts - and he played on the Butler HS senior high chess team.   We had some good chess players in our troop - but "Sam" was better - MUCH better - than all of us.    Holding a tournament with Sam included meant the outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.   Several Scouts wanted me to exclude him from the tournament for "fairness' sake".   Certainly, without Sam, the tournament would have been more competitive, with more players having a fighting chance to win it all.

I went to my dad for advice, and I'll never forget what he said - and I've lived by this mantra ever since:   "If you don't include "Sam", then you give up the right to call yourself a champion.   Even if you win the tournament, you've forfeited that right, because you excluded "Sam".  And you'll never know if you could have (beaten him)."

There can only be one "champion".  (definition:  "a person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, especially in sports.")    

I'm not against holding the All-A tournament - it holds a place in KY sports, and it's a really fun event.    But let's keep the Sweet 16 as it is.

 

On 3/14/2022 at 12:28 PM, nikeman49 said:

This tourney is the best show in the state for high school basketball every single year, other states envy our Sweet 16 and the traditional themes and values, to change the format in any single way would be a tremendous mistake and I would step out and say it’s just not happening.

 

1 hour ago, ColonelMike said:

I love everything about the Sweet 16 as is.

I wish I could record some of the comments I get from HS fans in other states, when they tell me how envious they are of Kentucky's Sweet 16 and our "one-class" system.....   of course, there are lots of folks who favor the "let's hand out as many trophies as possible" class system, but I think a lot of Kentuckians don't even realize how many people across the country wish our system was theirs....

 

I'm not trying to dismiss what either of you has been told...but, I'm going to give my perspective from a true "outsider's point of view". 

I graduated from a high school in Ohio back in the mid-80's, and have been a Kentucky resident for the past 30 years, so I think I'm well-equipped in offering a view from either side.  Look, I get it...it's nice to be able to have these scenarios where David defeats Goliath.  And we've romanticized the heck out of the whole "one true champion" mantra.  But let's be real.

There's, what, 260-270 boys high school teams in Kentucky right now?  In Ohio, there's around 800.  And let me tell you, it's hard enough to win "state" (or do we even have the right to call it that, considering there's four divisions?!?), when you're competing against 200 other schools the same size as you, let alone any others that are bigger than you.

I've been back a time or two when either my high school or a family member (from another school) made it to the regional rounds.  And I can say, on both occasions that that gym/arena was hopping just as much as Henry County has on a Friday or Saturday night of the boys 8th region semis/finals.  The kids didn't care that there were three other divisions playing that same night.  The parents didn't care.  The community didn't care.  Everyone rallied around those teams because it was "special".  A chance to go to "state".  There were no tears over not playing in a declassified system.  There was no talk of the competition being watered down.  These were hard fought games, and the excitement level was every bit of what I've experienced down here.

To me...it's what you're used to, that becomes the "ideal".  Heck the speed limit used to be 55, and those that went 65 were speed demons.  Now, you can do 65 and be called a slow poke because the limit is 70 now.  Are either one of those actually more "right"?  No.  They are what they are, for the time that they're in.  If Kentucky underwent a massive growth in population, and suddenly had 500+ high schools vying for a singular title...I'd hope there'd be a change here too.  (Especially if the "Goliath" schools outnumber the "David's" by an even wider margin than now.)

For what it is right now, Kentucky is fine doing it the way they do it.  260-270 is still a manageable number to have everyone eligible/participate in the post-season.  I like that aspect.  But, don't dismiss the way others may do it, as being "wrong".  You run your gauntlet, they'll run theirs.  Just my opinion.

6 hours ago, CincySportsFan said:

 

I'm not trying to dismiss what either of you has been told...but, I'm going to give my perspective from a true "outsider's point of view". 

I graduated from a high school in Ohio back in the mid-80's, and have been a Kentucky resident for the past 30 years, so I think I'm well-equipped in offering a view from either side.  Look, I get it...it's nice to be able to have these scenarios where David defeats Goliath.  And we've romanticized the heck out of the whole "one true champion" mantra.  But let's be real.

There's, what, 260-270 boys high school teams in Kentucky right now?  In Ohio, there's around 800.  And let me tell you, it's hard enough to win "state" (or do we even have the right to call it that, considering there's four divisions?!?), when you're competing against 200 other schools the same size as you, let alone any others that are bigger than you.

I've been back a time or two when either my high school or a family member (from another school) made it to the regional rounds.  And I can say, on both occasions that that gym/arena was hopping just as much as Henry County has on a Friday or Saturday night of the boys 8th region semis/finals.  The kids didn't care that there were three other divisions playing that same night.  The parents didn't care.  The community didn't care.  Everyone rallied around those teams because it was "special".  A chance to go to "state".  There were no tears over not playing in a declassified system.  There was no talk of the competition being watered down.  These were hard fought games, and the excitement level was every bit of what I've experienced down here.

To me...it's what you're used to, that becomes the "ideal".  Heck the speed limit used to be 55, and those that went 65 were speed demons.  Now, you can do 65 and be called a slow poke because the limit is 70 now.  Are either one of those actually more "right"?  No.  They are what they are, for the time that they're in.  If Kentucky underwent a massive growth in population, and suddenly had 500+ high schools vying for a singular title...I'd hope there'd be a change here too.  (Especially if the "Goliath" schools outnumber the "David's" by an even wider margin than now.)

For what it is right now, Kentucky is fine doing it the way they do it.  260-270 is still a manageable number to have everyone eligible/participate in the post-season.  I like that aspect.  But, don't dismiss the way others may do it, as being "wrong".  You run your gauntlet, they'll run theirs.  Just my opinion.

All very fair points.

But...Just for the record....I never said that anyone else had it wrong.   Only that KY has it right for KY.     (But I do travel a lot, and talk sports a lot, and have, in fact, been regaled by lots of out of state folks who pine for a single class system.....)

You have a very valid point when you talk about states with 800 or so teams.   I might even be convinced there.  But I'm in KY, and have been for all of my 60 years.   I'm only concerned about KY, where David does occasionally beat Goliath in the Big Dance.   It really wasn't that long ago that little Paintsville stood atop the mountain...

18 hours ago, ColonelMike said:

I love everything about the Sweet 16 as is.

I wish I could record some of the comments I get from HS fans in other states, when they tell me how envious they are of Kentucky's Sweet 16 and our "one-class" system.....   of course, there are lots of folks who favor the "let's hand out as many trophies as possible" class system, but I think a lot of Kentuckians don't even realize how many people across the country wish our system was theirs....

When I was teenager, I was in Boy Scouts.   I was a pretty fair chess player at the time, and played on my junior high chess team at Pleasure Ridge Park HS (I was in 8th grade at the time).   I wanted to organize a chess tournament in our troop, because there were a number of guys who played.    But I faced a dilemma:   What to do with "Sam"?   "Sam" was one of the oldest Scouts - and he played on the Butler HS senior high chess team.   We had some good chess players in our troop - but "Sam" was better - MUCH better - than all of us.    Holding a tournament with Sam included meant the outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.   Several Scouts wanted me to exclude him from the tournament for "fairness' sake".   Certainly, without Sam, the tournament would have been more competitive, with more players having a fighting chance to win it all.

I went to my dad for advice, and I'll never forget what he said - and I've lived by this mantra ever since:   "If you don't include "Sam", then you give up the right to call yourself a champion.   Even if you win the tournament, you've forfeited that right, because you excluded "Sam".  And you'll never know if you could have (beaten him)."

There can only be one "champion".  (definition:  "a person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, especially in sports.")    

I'm not against holding the All-A tournament - it holds a place in KY sports, and it's a really fun event.    But let's keep the Sweet 16 as it is.

 

I guess it depends on who you talk to. I hear the opposite when I talk to people outside of the state. 

11 hours ago, ColonelMike said:

All very fair points.

But...Just for the record....I never said that anyone else had it wrong.   Only that KY has it right for KY.     (But I do travel a lot, and talk sports a lot, and have, in fact, been regaled by lots of out of state folks who pine for a single class system.....)

You have a very valid point when you talk about states with 800 or so teams.   I might even be convinced there.  But I'm in KY, and have been for all of my 60 years.   I'm only concerned about KY, where David does occasionally beat Goliath in the Big Dance.   It really wasn't that long ago that little Paintsville stood atop the mountain...

Curious...who are these people that pine for a single class system?  Are we talking about high school basketball diehards/purists...people that go to the state tournament, regardless of who's participating?  Then, yeah, I can see where the attraction might be in that.  Why?  Because there's a chance for built-in drama, with the David(s) taking on the Goliaths.  Everybody loves an underdog.  

Unfortunately, I think the high school basketball diehards/purists are dying out, and not being replaced.  Fathers are not taking off of work, or pulling their kid out of school to go watch the Sweet 16.  It's not the "tradition" it used to be.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have discussion on how to increase attendance each year.  And that's WITH having a single-class tournament.

So, in any sport, when you're faced with "staying with tradition" or "changing to improve the game"...you might have to change.  Look at MLB.  Pitchers hit for how long?  Then the AL bastardized it (according to the old-timers) with the DH in the early 70's.  And now, here we are and it's going to be league-wide.  In another 10 years, it won't even be a second thought.  Kids 4 or 5 and under will grow up never knowing that pitchers actually hit for themselves.  Their grandfathers may "pine" for how it used to be, but they will be the only ones.

Look, I'm not saying Kentucky is wrong for doing it this way.  I just don't know that everyone is envious of it, that's all.  I think the envy is more an exception, than a rule.  Are there people in Ohio that wish they could have a single-class system?  Sure, I'm not going to deny that.  There's purists in every state.  But, their affirmation of it, doesn't mean that it's necessarily right for every situation.  And sometimes, situations change.

My issue with classification is how many classes do we go to?  And what does that do for travel costs to get to games?  And do we even have any districts anymore or just scrap and go to regionals like the All A does?  Lots of questions I'd like to see logistically.

1 hour ago, CincySportsFan said:

Curious...who are these people that pine for a single class system?  Are we talking about high school basketball diehards/purists...people that go to the state tournament, regardless of who's participating?  Then, yeah, I can see where the attraction might be in that.  Why?  Because there's a chance for built-in drama, with the David(s) taking on the Goliaths.  Everybody loves an underdog.  

Unfortunately, I think the high school basketball diehards/purists are dying out, and not being replaced.  Fathers are not taking off of work, or pulling their kid out of school to go watch the Sweet 16.  It's not the "tradition" it used to be.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have discussion on how to increase attendance each year.  And that's WITH having a single-class tournament.

So, in any sport, when you're faced with "staying with tradition" or "changing to improve the game"...you might have to change.  Look at MLB.  Pitchers hit for how long?  Then the AL bastardized it (according to the old-timers) with the DH in the early 70's.  And now, here we are and it's going to be league-wide.  In another 10 years, it won't even be a second thought.  Kids 4 or 5 and under will grow up never knowing that pitchers actually hit for themselves.  Their grandfathers may "pine" for how it used to be, but they will be the only ones.

Look, I'm not saying Kentucky is wrong for doing it this way.  I just don't know that everyone is envious of it, that's all.  I think the envy is more an exception, than a rule.  Are there people in Ohio that wish they could have a single-class system?  Sure, I'm not going to deny that.  There's purists in every state.  But, their affirmation of it, doesn't mean that it's necessarily right for every situation.  And sometimes, situations change.

When our little school of 320 students won the girls sweet sixteen 7 years ago they came home as heroes.  My daughter who was in 2nd grade at the time had a writing assignment and in her little girl handwriting wrote about how Deja shot the game winner against the big bad Etown and then in the championship game Abby shot the game winner.  Everyone involved at the school and surrounding community still talk about how they beat four team more than twice their size.  Bell County (600+) with Maci Morris, Male (1950), Elizabethtown (759) with Erin Boley, and Allen County Scottsville (880). Oh yeah they also won the All A that year but the big prize means so much more.  A few years before that football won state in AA, the girls are the talk of the town though.